The Project Pad

I'd like to turn this forum into a great resource for beginners and seasoned owners/builders alike. I think by creating a few stickies, we can have a great base of general information that anyone can access, and can help members here make decisions about their own projects.

This thread will be useful IF:

- a general idea of the engine setup and fueling is known
- a general idea of the level of tune (base map, dyno tuned, etc.)
- the thread does not get clogged with debate

For example, my dad's vs Erik's car's dyno graphs for comparison, done on the same day. Here's a link to the MG post: http://motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38368&start=258. As we go, I can edit this post into a one- or two-line list of turbos, output, and spool.

So I'll start.


- Comp Turbo CT3-6465, billet/ceramic bb. .82 a/r hotside with Quick Spool Valve. 26psi @ 4100rpm, 465whp @ 6000rpm. Engine: built 2.5L stroker 8.5:1 compression, VEMS, dyno tuned

I'm thinking Iroz Motorsport needs to buy a dyno for BBQ4 and this thread will have A LOT of data to choose from after all the cars that show up get dyno'd!

I'm planning to dyno my car come E85 season so I can add to this.

I am hoping to dyno the K26/H1C during BBQ. The 2nd turbo will be on for next years event.

85oceanic wrote:I am hoping to dyno the K26/H1C during BBQ. The 2nd turbo will be on for next years event.

TWO TURBOS????

amd is the best wrote:

85oceanic wrote:I am hoping to dyno the K26/H1C during BBQ. The 2nd turbo will be on for next years event.

TWO TURBOS????

Hmm, I see what I did there.

The "replacement" turbo will be on for next years event.

85oceanic wrote:

amd is the best wrote:

85oceanic wrote:I am hoping to dyno the K26/H1C during BBQ. The 2nd turbo will be on for next years event.

TWO TURBOS????

Hmm, I see what I did there.

The "replacement" turbo will be on for next years event.

Haha, I'm fine with either.

Here's the only hta3586 data I've seen on an I5. JP's two ton bugswatter. Heavily built AAN stroker.

http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread ... 52&page=50

I'll just leave this here:

[QUOTE=mainstayinc]I thought I would post my response to an IM I recieved here in this thread instead of the [url="http://forums.vwvortex.com/forumdisplay.php?568-Inline-5-10v-20v-Engine-Forum"]Inline-5 20v & 20v Engine[/url] Forum which has not had any activity in over two months (see below).



[...]

Here are the engine specs for the 20V 5 cylinder:

Bore: 82.5mm
Stroke: 86.4mm
Cylinders: 5
Displacement: 2309.3cc

Here is the Garrett GTX3576R overlaid with 2309 cc's:



As you can see, the GTX3576R is capable of close to 650 HP, with peak power occuring at about 6200 RPMs and 31.85 psi (P2/P1=3.167). The surge line for this combination ranges from about 2000 RPMs at lower boost pressure all the way above 3600 RPMs. This setup would provide a fairly responsive turbo at 2.3L similar to what you might expect from a GT3071R on 1.8L (if that means anything to you).

Below is the GTX3582R overlaid with 2309 cc's:



The GTX3582R is capable of over 750 HP with peak power at 2.3L occuring at 8200+ RPMs and 27 psi (P2/P1=2.83). However, at 2.3L, the GTX3582R leaves too much on the table with a substantial part of the map laying above 8000 RPMs and peak efficiency (dotted line in center of map) mostly occuring above 6000 RPMs. I would not recommend this turbo unless you plan to rev the 20V 5 cylinder above 9000 RPMs. In that case, the GTX3582R would be a better match.

Below is the GTX3576R and GTX3582R overlaid for comparison:



Below is the Holset Super HX40 and the GTX3582R overlaid with 2.3L for comparison.



As you can see, the Holset is capable of close to 900 HP with peak power occuring at 8400+ RPMs and 32 psi (P2/P1=3.186). The Holset has a better surge line as compared to the GTX3582R by several hundred RPMs. That means that this turbo will begin to produce good airflow sooner and likely come into boost quicker. It also has more total corrected airflow as compared to the GTX which makes it a better choice for a higher reving application. I wouldn't recommend this turbo unless you plan to rev. to at least 8500 RPMs.

I could not find a compressor map for the HTA or PTE turbos. However, you may want to consider the BW EFR8374. Below is the EFR8374 overlaid with 2.3L:



The BW EFR8374 is capable of close to 800 HP with peak power occuring at about 8000 RPMs and 29.4 psi (P2/P1=3) with a surge line ranging from 2500 to 3500 RPMs at 2.3L. This would be a nice combination for a higher-reving application.

Below is the BW EFR8374 and GTX3582R overlaid with 2.3L for comparison:



As you can see, the BW has a slight advantage in terms of surge line and total corrected air flow which would make it a better choice over the GTX3582R in this HP range.

I hope this analysis helps![/QUOTE]

Meh I don't like the way he is extrapolating those numbers straight from compressor maps. I see the basic math but some of those turbo just aren't capable of the numbers mentioned.

It's a good starting point for us common (non-engineer) folk...

Tweak/fix it!

Who is giving this narrative? The HX40 data just doesn't match up with real world experience I have seen from people running that turbo on 2.2L 20vt.

That's the thing... the comp map can only tell you so much. There is a lot more that goes into it than just that. It is indeed a good start, but as Hank said, it just doesn't match up to real-world.

He goes by mainstayinc on vortex.

I would love to have the ability to develop rpm based compressor maps like that. I agree that they don't tell the whole story… but that's the perfect place to start - with turbo manufacturer's info that's customized to your engine.

Check post #281 for more detail; pretty cool I think… http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... hink/page9

**edit** I can't attach .xls files :( Ed?


I have developed an excel sheet which can help you plot points on comp maps (you have to input the comp maps yourself though). Take a look and play with it if you want. I can explain if needed (don't have the time at the moment). Basically you put all of your parameters into the green box and note the flow rates in lb/min or CFM (whichever the comp map you have uses) for a given RPM while adjusting pressure ratio for what you estimate boost would be for that RPM and you can plot the turbo's path over the compressor map.

This doesn't help for figuring out how the turbo will spool as that is a much, MUCH more complicated analysis, but for almost any turbo out there you should be able to get a good estimate of it.

Hank wrote:Who is giving this narrative? The HX40 data just doesn't match up with real world experience I have seen from people running that turbo on 2.2L 20vt.

the dsm record for hx40 7 blade bilelt wheel(best flowing, of the 6,7,8 blade variants) is 685 whp on e85@42psi

theres no way its going 900 lmao!!

Looking forward to playing with that spreadsheet Chris!

my2000apb wrote:

Hank wrote:Who is giving this narrative? The HX40 data just doesn't match up with real world experience I have seen from people running that turbo on 2.2L 20vt.

the dsm record for hx40 7 blade bilelt wheel(best flowing, of the 6,7,8 blade variants) is 685 whp on e85@42psi

theres no way its going 900 lmao!!

Again... this is a rough estimate for power at the crank... not the wheels. What's the DSM drivetrain loss added back to 685? Probably pretty close to 850 (at least in the Audi world).

We'll see what it does on an 07k soon. Not soon enough, but soon.

Just some Size info...

Nice!

Some excellent info on EFR vs GTX turbos on a 2.5L scooby

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/borg- ... -and-tune/

And this too:
http://blog.perrinperformance.com/borg- ... ed-part-2/

Must admit... this hype about the transient response and the boost hungry ways of the EFR range has my full attention.

Looks so far like the still unavailable 7163 is best for a 2.5L stroker but there does happen to be this specific turbo for sale. Apparently he's a reputable fellow...

[quote=R/TErnie]2235cc Evo on E85 in 4th gear. 7670 EFR 1.05AR TS T4. Nuff said.

__________________
Engine Calibration Engineer - APR, LLC[/quote]
http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-engine ... i-buy.html