The Project Pad

Well I've gone and done it... bought myself Zerb's old 07K engine. Of course to me the word "old" is a little ironic because it's 15 years newer than any other engine I've ever owned!

For now I think I'm going to continue my build thread on MG because I'm too lazy to post everything twice: http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=42240&p=862945#p862921 but I know there's a ton of 07K knowledge here so I figured I'd start this thread for the 1,000,000 questions I'm sure I'll have.

And I'll preface things by saying I've read just about everything I can find about the 07K on the web, and here in particular. But I have a lousy memory so if I ask a question that's already been covered, feel free to virtually whack me upside the head with a 2x4 and direct me to the right page/thread to find the info!

I'm going to start off with a couple of nebulous ones based just on looking over my new toy:
1) Bolt locations to hold the intake manifold on. Seem pretty plentiful above the ports, but there aren't many below. Are the stock locations ample to hold a manifold on a boosted application, or are you guys adding some?

2) What's up with the water pump on these things? I'm pretty sure I've seen larger ones on home aquariums. Does the stock pump really move enough H2O to cool an engine making 2.3 gazillion horsepower?

3) Oil pans. In my looking around I've seen two types: Hank's, and ones made completely from scratch. I'd love an Iroz one but simply can't afford it so that option's out. But I'm wondering: has anyone considered hacking up the stock "upper oil pan" (is that the right term) and fabricating a lower part onto it? I know that would involve a lot of cutting and adapting, but it would save fabricating the flange to mate to the bottom of the block.

Manifold seems fine, I am doing an electric BMW water pump.

I have looked at the oil pan long and hard. I think a new subframe with the crossover under the transmission would be easier than anything since you also have to modify the pickup tube to clear the subframe.

Yeah, I think that's what Zerb did, although he modded his subframe to be lower rather than be farther to the rear.

But I think that would be about my last choice... I want to keep the car drivable while I figure out everything for the swap. I'm even buying another 016 tranny for the project, so the car doesn't have to be off the road for too long as it's my DD.

I've not paid a lot of attention to the 07k parts list as I was under the impression that the 016 was a no go. You've found otherwise?

mr_aj_johnson wrote:I've not paid a lot of attention to the 07k parts list as I was under the impression that the 016 was a no go. You've found otherwise?

+1. I believe this stems from the fact that the 07k is basically a 4cyl bellhousing pattern not the older 5cyl pattern. So 016 won't work unless it's a 4cyl one. Need 01E or 01A

mr_aj_johnson wrote:I've not paid a lot of attention to the 07k parts list as I was under the impression that the 016 was a no go. You've found otherwise?

Not necessarily! I'm just incredibly stubborn and persistent and want to give it the old college try. I may give up, but I *really* like my locking center diff and the 016 is the only way to get that. If they had manually-lockable 01E's I'd have one in a heartbeat.

Of course there's also the fact that I have money and effort invested in getting the 016 shift linkage working which would be nice to preserve rather than start over from scratch.

Speaking of which, my understanding of why the 016 won't work is 1) wrong bellhousing bolt pattern and 2) the crankshaft doesn't have provision for the needed pilot bearing (and might stick out too far?). It seems like #2 could be dealt with by machining the crankshaft? And an adapter plate could be made to deal with #1, although it would take away some of the shortness advantage of the 07K. It seems like an alternative would be to mod the bellhousing to add the necessary bolt and alignment sleeve bosses, although that would be difficult and you'd be stuck using that one transmission. I imagine there are also flywheel issues that will take some investigating.

Does anyone know of any other issue(s)?

The great thing about the 07k is it will make 450whp on about 15 psi of boost. That's not very good for the 016 though. Although if you never lock it on pavement it will handle more power.

You might be able to convert an I4 FWD 016 (out of an I4 4000S) to AWD if you sacrifice an AWD 016 and remove it's guts and rear housing to put in the FWD front housing. Then that might bolt up to the 07K (probably with some mods like the 01E's need to the upper bolts).

That's an interesting idea!

I've read a little about the 01Es needing modification but are there any photos showing it? I'd like to be able to visualize what's going on.

Here's a good thread with some diagrams and info (for 012/01A, but should be similar for 016): http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthrea ... rchangable

Seems like it could be done so long as you have both trannies. I think most people generally want to do the conversion because they can't get on or the other, and that's where people say it won't work since the shafts are different. But if you have the right parts, it seems like the forward cases are the same.

Here are my 01e mods

Cool, thanks!

So... on to the next strange question.

My existing motor is torque-limited by the (stock 200 20V) clutch slipping. So when I do the 07K swap I'm going to need more clutch - assuming I'm going to want more torque and who doesn't want more torque? But I hate sport clutches... I had a Spec stage 1 in my Saab that's supposedly "very drivable" but its grabbiness and tendency to chatter drove me nuts and caused my wife to refuse to drive the car.

I've read that creative people (which rules me out) can take apart a pressure plate and mess with the innards to increase clamping force. In particular, it seems you can increase the force at the expense of pedal travel by moving the fulcrum ring for the diaphragm spring? That would be ideal for me because my car has way more pedal travel than it needs - basically the bottom 2/3 of travel does nothing.

Does anyone here know about such things, or recommend someone to do that kind of work?

Also can people that do that kind of work actually measure the pressure plate's clamping force? I've actually got 3 spare pressure plates sitting around - some are from 3Bs and others from 7As and I don't know which are which. So if there's a difference in clamping force between the two, I'd want to start with the one that's greater.

My Buddies southbend stage 3 endurance feels like a stock clutch.
For what it's worth anyways.

A local clutch shop might be able to do something, but this is what you really want.
http://store.034motorsport.com/sachs-70 ... di-i5.html

Southbend and many others use for more clamping force.

Interesting! So that's the legendary "Sachs sport clutch" I've read so much about?

I'm glad to see it has "exemplary construction"... I've always wanted a clutch that has that.

If that's the plate Southbend uses, it looks like you can get it from a certain Mr. Swanson for significantly less money with a disc included: http://www.efiexpress.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=8&products_id=79

I just put a pretty serious Southbend (need to find my paperwork... I forget exactly which one they spec'd for me) in my B6 and I love it- it's rated for well over the 400whp I'm trying to make, has great modulation and isn't too heavy at all. I got it with their steel flywheel and while not cheap ($1900 retail for the package) I wouldn't do it differently. If you decide to go the Southbend route Eric, let me know and I can price it out for you, you've helped me out a lot in the past, would love a chance to return the favor

Javad had southbend drop ship it to me. 034 uses spec disks, Marc uses Southbend. The price will be similar by the time you select a clutch that needs this. I just like the fact 034 had it listed separately and you are not guessing which stage uses this PP. My disk is a 6 pick sprung feramic.

Erik, if you get bored would you mind taking a look at how hard it would be to marry the 016 to the 07k? it would make a killer open light motor. I don't necessarily want to swap to an 01e and make a spool just so I can go play naturally aspirated.

mr_aj_johnson wrote:Erik, if you get bored would you mind taking a look at how hard it would be to marry the 016 to the 07k? it would make a killer open light motor. I don't necessarily want to swap to an 01e and make a spool just so I can go play naturally aspirated.

Not going to work with an I5 016 without an adapter plate. I just went through explaining this on Facebook. See my 968 thread for more details. Basically, only 1 bolt hole lines up.

You could try an I4 016...but I think those only came in FWD (at least in the usa)

mr_aj_johnson wrote:Erik, if you get bored would you mind taking a look at how hard it would be to marry the 016 to the 07k? it would make a killer open light motor. I don't necessarily want to swap to an 01e and make a spool just so I can go play naturally aspirated.

That's what I'm working on!

But it may be months before I have an answer. I don't have an extra 016 tranny around, although that may change this weekend. And I don't want the car off the road for an extended period of time, so I'm trying to do as much engineering/fabricating as possible before pulling the existing motor.

But as others here have pointed out, I'm not the first to try this and the consensus is it's not going to be easy... if it's even possible within reason. Although I'm definitely willing to consider unreasonable options...

alxdgr8 wrote:You could try an I4 016...but I think those only came in FWD (at least in the usa)

Yeah, someone else pointed that out, and it's something I might investigate. I just haven't had time yet. It seems like it might be possible to use the front housing of the FWD 016 and the guts and other housings of a quattro 016, but I suspect the only way to know for sure will be to get my hands on both and tear into them.

Another thing that's a concern, even if the bolts-not-lining-up problem can be solved, is the length of the 016 input shaft. It sticks out farther than the 01A/01E input shaft, and I fear the pilot bearing bore in the end of the crankshaft may not be deep enough to accommodate it. Then again, an adapter plate could help with that problem.

Hey... is there any chance someone could take some measurements for me on a "classic I5" engine? Even for those not trying to use an 016 tranny, this might be useful reference info.

What I'd like to know is the offset between the crankshaft's flywheel mounting face relative to the transmission mounting surface (ie how far the crank flange protrudes or is recessed), how far the "snout" on the crank flange sticks out, and the depth and diameter of the pilot bearing bore.

I don't have a spare old engine around, otherwise I'd make the measurements myself. Although I might get access to one this weekend... if that happens I'll post the data here.

Thanks in advance!

alxdgr8 wrote:You could try an I4 016...but I think those only came in FWD (at least in the usa)

Hey... does anyone have any documentation or links for a FWD / 4-cylinder 016?

I just spent some quality time with my B2 and B3 Bentleys.

According to them, the B2 came with two different FWD (/ 4-cylinder ?) transmisisons: the 013 and 093. Both are significantly different from the quattro 016 in that they have cable-operated clutch release mechanisms. The internal shift linkage appears different on both too, the selector rod comes out the back of the housing 01A-style. Of the two the 093 seems closer to the 016 in that it has the cover for the front diff on the right side... the 013 has it on the left.

The B3 Bentley shows two transmissions: the 01A quattro and the 012 FWD. Those appear pretty similar to each other, but a transmission that's similar to an 01A isn't what I need.

I have access to about 10 fwd fox transmissions at work I'll take a look at the code it sounds like the 093, I could probably pull a bell housing off one for a few bucks and shipping if you want to test your theory...

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