The Project Pad

Hey hey hey now, no injector failures in here Ed!

I want to see very detailed pics of #5 plug. That will help tell the story. Of course, the piston will be telltale as well.

I definitely remember someone mentioning a lots of glow on that header at some point. That is what sticks out to me most here. I think high in-cylinder temps was the cause of this.

Could also be related to anti lag and launch control settings.

That sucks Obi. I have plenty of pistons and a spare block or 2 if you can't find a free one local and you need parts. The way I see it, you have 3 options and none of them involve signing off although all of them involve a trip to Marcs dyno:

1. Similar rebuild on a budget reusing all salvageable parts.

2. Rebuild with pistons and a head by FRP.

3. Ahem *cough* Oohsevenkay.

Of course, you could always donate your car to my non profit and I will do with it as I see fit.

In all seriousness, I think that some combo of unknown E%, tune, and the general ass whooping that the engine saw killed the plug. I've had the same plugs now for 8k hard miles and they aren't even misfiring yet. Marc isn't cheap, but engines are flat out expensive.

I could reuse you rods and rod bearings in 07k. The exhaust manifold and downpipe could be converted fairly easily, as well as the clutch if it is 7a.

The easiest is just to get another stock piston, slap it into a new block, fix the head and keep motoring. IT's easy to get in a tail spin over something like this, but a strong weekend with some good friends will have you back in action.

Hank

I love the determination here to figure all this out guys, to the point that I borrowed a car to get to Rubí to get that 1 dtc and that failed plug. However it just gets clearer and clearer with every suggestion... Let me explain by addressing each one...

First and Foremost:

Marc wrote:.020" is the gap to run, not that .019" caused your problems here. as I mentioned via text, certainly detonation and possible high egts to cause the plug to look like that.

1)In our texts you never mentioned anything wrong with the DTC's that just came out.... All I did was swap, the pump tune hasn't been touched since engine break in.
2)Oh and you might wanna be a bit more specific on your instruction set if ".020 is the gap to run" as even I thought I was being conservative in going .019 ....
See your recommendation below...


All I wanted was "excellent performance on my high boost Audi"... Maybe I didn't run enough boost??? IDK

EDIGREG wrote:You were logging fuel pressure? I don't see it in your log

If pressure dropped wouldn't my lambda suffer? That portion is obviously logged with no shortage of supply on any log...

EDIGREG wrote: It would be helpful to see the 5th DTC that is missing from the photo (why photograph only 4 plugs?) and detailed photos of all, as well as detailed photos of all 5 of the NGK plugs.

Made a special trip a 12 am just for you bro,... Spark Plug packaging comes in groups of 4, so those are the ones I had handy at the time for pics, I had thrown the 5th in the glove box. But that 5th plug actually corresponds to cylinder #1 as removed them from 5-1 as I put those in the new available box. The last one was chucked in the glove compartment as I said previously...

EDIGREG wrote:There are a lot of things that could have gone wrong man, you need to provide as much info to the forum as you can if you want help diagnosing. Wb02 could have been bad or not properly calibrated? vacuum line to the FPR could have had a leak? #5 injector failure? Etc

Great ideas, but none hold true in this case except of course for that injector theory... Hmmmm

loxxrider wrote:Hey hey hey now, no injector failures in here Ed!

I want to see very detailed pics of #5 plug. That will help tell the story. Of course, the piston will be telltale as well.

I definitely remember someone mentioning a lots of glow on that header at some point. That is what sticks out to me most here. I think high in-cylinder temps was the cause of this.

Well, failed plug 5 has been pictured again above with my cell... I'll better ones tomorrow... And don't worry, I really do suspect the injectors to be the cause. [WINKING FACE]

audifreakjim wrote:Could also be related to anti lag and launch control settings.

Didn't touch any of that with these plugs, were just swapped in this weekend...

roortube wrote:That sucks Obi. I have plenty of pistons and a spare block or 2 if you can't find a free one local and you need parts. The way I see it, you have 3 options and none of them involve signing off although all of them involve a trip to Marcs dyno:

1. Similar rebuild on a budget reusing all salvageable parts.

2. Rebuild with pistons and a head by FRP.

3. Ahem *cough* Oohsevenkay.

Of course, you could always donate your car to my non profit and I will do with it as I see fit.

In all seriousness, I think that some combo of unknown E%, tune, and the general ass whooping that the engine saw killed the plug. I've had the same plugs now for 8k hard miles and they aren't even misfiring yet. Marc isn't cheap, but engines are flat out expensive.

I'm glad you summed it up this way, all I can say is that if any plug went through more unknown combos of E, it was the DTC's... If any ass whopping was ever received (I've got witnesses) the DTC's held up and look nothing like these upon 10k miles worth of abuse... And last but not least, you my dear friend are on Motronic. The built in safetys are possibly helping out a lot on hot days and questionable conditions(fuel, ambient temps, ect) I've always nicely asked about bumping up to newer Vems firmware that implement these features but have been advise to steer clear due to the unknowns that can exist, but seriously we VEMS users should probably get acclimated with a firmware that uses knock sensing, it probably could've helped in my case...

So my tune is ratchet? My DTCs held up
So my fuel mixture is ghetto? My DTCs ignored it
So I don't log pressure? My DTCs didn't care
Bad O2 calibration? DTCs said "ok"
FPR vac line issue? DTCs said "what's that?"
So my header is hot? DTCs said "wouldn't be the first time"
No knock sensing ECU firmware? DTCs dont need no eagle eye watching over it's shoulder... They took 10k miles of all that without a hiccup, can anyone blame me for considering these "alternatives" a complete downgrade that lasted 72hours and the one sensible pull I do they decide to just die?

Perhaps I'm being reluctant to accept anything else but the last thing I wanted was for this to happen, I even mentioned a couple weeks ago that I was turning down the boost and gonna run conservative pump tune since my clutch started slipping. True is could be "anything" but soo far the ONLY change was a plug change that only proved how much more robust DTC's were on my setup.

I'll gladly accept help in ripping into her for further examination, till then she'll be parked untill motivation/faith/funds is restored....

PS, I'll pull the other 4 pieces of scrap metal out for comparison pics... I'll be sure to label which cylinder they correspond to...


Sent from BED on HTC One using Tapatalk

Not fun to see, man. Sorry this happened.

Guys, try to not jump down his throat on this stuff. Blowing shit up is never fun.

pilihp2 wrote:Not fun to see, man. Sorry this happened.

Guys, try to not jump down his throat on this stuff. Blowing shit up is never fun.

No it's cool... I could be wrong as I've been many times before... Just know that when it comes to the tune, it's been triple checked by myself and by many reputable folks here as well. The knowledge and understanding gained through it all has been immense.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

Best of luck, putting a whole bunch of work in and having shit like this happen sucks. Keep at it, it will probably take a lot less work than you think. Like you said, its motivation that you are in need of.

pilihp2 wrote:Guys, try to not jump down his throat on this stuff. Blowing shit up is never fun.

Nobody here is "jumping down his throat" - we're trying to help him diagnose the cause.

the ngk heat range 7 is listed as equivalent to bosch heat range 5. regarding the pics you sent me of the bosch plugs I did comment that you had some depositing going on. That yellow pasty shit isn't normal. either carbon or other foreign material depositing. any way you slice it, shitty, and I feel for you.

If pressure dropped wouldn't my lambda suffer? That portion is obviously logged with no shortage of supply on any log...

Yes, but were you logging when this happened? I don't see any logs.

Your lambda could have been perfect for 10 years, but it was likely a singular event that caused this failure. You were not logging that event (I don't believe). Referencing any other log is useless.

Made a special trip a 12 am just for you bro,... Spark Plug packaging comes in groups of 4, so those are the ones I had handy at the time for pics, I had thrown the 5th in the glove box. But that 5th plug actually corresponds to cylinder #1 as removed them from 5-1 as I put those in the new available box. The last one was chucked in the glove compartment as I said previously...

For me? Don't do anything for me bud - if you want help from this forum with diagnosis, then post up data. If you don't - well, then no skin off my back.

But apparently you didn't read my post anyways, and made a "special trip" for no reason, because you posted another pic of the same 5 plugs. We want to see the OTHER 4 NGK plugs.

Perhaps I'm being reluctant to accept anything

Uh, yeah - that. #5 detonated. A bunch of people here have just told you the same thing. It's not the plugs fault, no matter how much you want to blame them.

Sucks man - I feel bad... get the head off and see what the damage is, and take it from there.

I also vote stock block like hank said - I wish I lived closer man, I would even bring the beer to make this happen.

400whp stock block notbadface.jpg

So this happened on pump gas or e85? If pump, can you post a log of the condition that the engine would have seen? Sometimes people get really conservative with timing which amounts to retarded timing. That makes for very hot egts. The coolest burn is the burn where the most chemical/thermal energy is being converted to mechanical.

Hank wrote:So this happened on pump gas or e85? If pump, can you post a log of the condition that the engine would have seen? Sometimes people get really conservative with timing which amounts to retarded timing. That makes for very hot egts. The coolest burn is the burn where the most chemical/thermal energy is being converted to mechanical.

It was on pump 24psi, no log as that pump config was perfected a while back and hasn't changed.

EDIGREG wrote:

Perhaps I'm being reluctant to accept anything

Uh, yeah - that. #5 detonated. A bunch of people here have just told you the same thing. It's not the plugs fault, no matter how much you want to blame them.

All I've said is that the DTC's handled whatever was being thrown at them BETTER, for a longer period before needing replacement and during my learning phase of VEMS tuning... That's the only thing I'm trying to relay... Accepting that there was DET after so many clean logs and a Knock-Phone checked map would have anyone weary of where I went wrong. Deteriorating Fuel Filter? Leading to a Clogged fuel rail? or Sticky injector?.... these are the only things that I can fathom..

Pics as promised.... they smelled fouled with fuel and were damp... yes I had to drive on 4 cylinders to a safe place...
Placed in cylinder order...

OB, keep your head up. Like others have said, you should just be some sweat, time and a few bucks away from having the car back together and ripping again.

On the plug issue... if there wasn't some problem in the first place, the plug would have never failed. Also, let's assume that there was no underlying issue. If the plug failed with no other existing issues, then the engine would have likely just chewed that ground strap up and spit it out through an exhaust valve. Again, the story will truly be told when you get a look in at that piston. If it is melted, it isn't the plug's fault!

By the way, if there is ANY deposition on that plug, there is det happening. It is easiest to see on a fresh plug, but if you see little (tiny) black deposits on there you're getting det. Shiny deposits = full blown really bad det! Guess what that black stuff is? It's carbon from the top of your piston getting blown off by the shockwave of the det. Also, when I asked for a detailed pic of the porcelain, I meant like microscopic detailed.

I guess there really isn't any sense in speculating until you get a look at that. Should be fairly quick to pop the head off or borrow someone's borescope!

mushasho wrote:All I've said is that the DTC's handled whatever was being thrown at them BETTER, for a longer period before needing replacement

The cylinder 5 Bosch plug did not experience the detonation event that the NGK plug did, if it did, it would look just as bad.

And like Chris said, if that ground strap happened to break off, it would get demolished or spit out before it caused you to lose all compression on that cylinder. The rounded/melted ground strap and the deposits all over the plug are dead give aways for det.

Take some time off and rebuild it when you are ready And if you want the safety of an OEM ECU, get a custom Motronic tune and forget about it.

This is just part of the game @ 200whp+/Liter. Sucks, but shit happens. I had a catastrophic worse than this last weekend and it taught me a bunch about tuning. It is all a big learning curve and nobody is immune.

Hank

Hank wrote:This is just part of the game @ 200whp+/Liter. Sucks, but shit happens. I had a catastrophic worse than this last weekend and it taught me a bunch about tuning. It is all a big learning curve and nobody is immune.

Hank

Gotta say a big amen to that. Chin up OB, we're all rooting for you.

Matt's dad.

While I agree with everyone here, it still doesn't make any sense that the tuning would just turn to shit in that one cylinder. I know everyone has mechanical engineering degrees, but I still think it's very plausible that one of these spark plugs had a manufacture error, or simply got dropped on the ground during shipping. Depending on the method of how this plug was gapped there could have been a microscopic hairline fracture in the tip, which would only show itself once subjected to Heating and Cooling of immense proportions.

I even once had a tip break off of me at this exact same place when trying to gap down a champion plug for a moped - food for thought.

EDIGREG wrote: And if you want the safety of an OEM ECU, get a custom Motronic tune and forget about it.

Why ignore the fact that VEMS has the ability to provide better safety feature in newer firmware?

themagellan wrote:While I agree with everyone here, it still doesn't make any sense that the tuning would just turn to shit in that one cylinder.

What I think they're saying is that the tune was decent based on the DTC's and that some other mechanical failure/inconsistency happened to occur coincidentally around the time of changing plugs. I would be UBER rare for VEMS to just adjust a setting on it's own (at least this is my thinking)... scary if it did, as I haven't even charged my VEMS Netbook since going pump...

themagellan wrote:I even once had a tip break off of me at this exact same place when trying to gap down a champion plug for a moped - food for thought.

Yeah going that low on the tip just felt wrong and forced...

Wrong o2 sensor readings might have leaned you out and over-corrected, plugs out of cyl 3 and 4 don't look that hot either. Not sure what are the chances of getting a bad batch of gas.

themagellan wrote:While I agree with everyone here, it still doesn't make any sense that the tuning would just turn to shit in that one cylinder. I know everyone has mechanical engineering degrees, but I still think it's very plausible that one of these spark plugs had a manufacture error, or simply got dropped on the ground during shipping. Depending on the method of how this plug was gapped there could have been a microscopic hairline fracture in the tip, which would only show itself once subjected to Heating and Cooling of immense proportions.

I even once had a tip break off of me at this exact same place when trying to gap down a champion plug for a moped - food for thought.

Sure it does - The tune did not change, or "turn to shit", but something happened that caused #5 to get lean.

I'm willing to bet fuel pressure stability was the culprit. Remember that #5 gets fuel fed from the rail LAST - #5 would be most effected by a drop in fuel pressure.

Also, with a decrease in fuel pressure, it is easy to be fooled by a lambda reading that appears to be good - when really all you have done is compensate for fuel pressure with pulse width to adjust the OVERALL lambda reading. Without stable fuel pressure, you don't know what is truly happening in each cylinder (per-cylinder EGT FTW).

If the ground strap just broke off, it wouldn't be melted and there wouldn't be zero compression.

Why ignore the fact that VEMS has the ability to provide better safety feature in newer firmware?

OEM ECUs will always be far superior to stand-alone as far as knock detection and safety goes (Maybe in the future if there is some breakthrough in noise filtering this could change).

Those 5 plugs really don't look the same.
#1 is much leaner than the others. Maybe it was the next to go.
#2 and #3 look wet and rich. Is that wet fuel on them, or had it evaporated off by the time you took the pic? If the fuel was gone, that's probably oil.
#4 looks dry and rich.
#5, well, uhh, not so good.

All this means that your holes weren't being fed equally.
Vacuum leak around injector #1?
Flaky wiring for some injectors and/or coils?
Wonky flabbulanger solenoid?

I would suggest disabling cylinder 5 in software, and running the engine just enough to see if you can find out why the other plugs look so bad, and different.

Were you running closed loop O2 in boost too?

Actually, if some injectors had leaks around the engine-side o-rings, that could wreak havoc with fueling. Rich under boost, lean in vacuum, on a per-cylinder basis, all averaged out by your wideband.You can really chase your tail on that one, once you realize something's up at all.