The Project Pad

Sorry to see this Matt, hope you can recover emotionally from this, just think of it as chunks of metal that can be replaced and rebuilt.

If you need some moral support, we are all here for you... remember, quattroholics meeting is next week.

Cheers

ugh. sorry to see that Matt. now that the head is off, to see if maybe your zero index was off (or your t-belt alignment) flash the timing light while cranking it over at the #1 piston....

The quickest and dirtiest way I can conceive to get it back up and running is new 83mm pistons, hone in place, and try to clean the shit off the head without decking it.

That's still ~$1k by the time you add in gaskets and etc bullshit

Otherwise it'd be stock block and pistons which would be cheaper but slower and would require removal of the block.

Funk.

I'm not sure about the car timing being off, hank. I zerod it in and checked it again after. Set gun and VEMS to 1°. Perfect. I'm thinking it could be fuel, somehow. Perhaps the injectors should be flow matched.

I have ONE log somewhere, with ego on unfortunately, haven't even looked at it yet. I am also wondering if that wandering lambda was worse than I thought and caused the car to go lean at some point (lots of points obviously).

The other option I'm considering but am pretty sure I don't have cash for is shipping the car to Marc or hank and saying "do it" and pick it up sometime. Later. Much later. At this point, with dad's build gone sour and my build gone sour within two thousand km, I have to consider that perhaps I don't have the skill or knowledge to do this kind of build. Which is frustrating because I spent so much time and money making sure everything was right, clearances, ring orientation, block machining, head work and components, torque values, oiling, and just double checking everything in general.

Funk x 2.

The cheapest and best motor would be getting a stock longblock, throwing your rods in there along with your arp stuff and then just dropping that end. No way in hell those cylinders are round or free from scratches that would yield a healthy motor.

With 8:1 pistons, you really have to have something south for that to happen. Could be fuel but likely just advanced timing. Whether it was mechanical advance or electronic advance via tuning is dtill a tad unknown.

Think I might have a hypothesis as to why the gtx had metal in the bearing surfaces.

Seriously sucks dude.

There are so many silly things that can happen when you get involved in some of the more serious builds like yours became. I always find that when I try to go above and beyond to make sure each clearance is this and this is that. Something is defective them I am totally screwed (Clutches and trans for me)

I also echo that when the time is right you get the car a stock longblock for CHEAP (you can) put your rods in and enjoy or sell it and recoup your money.

be happy you have a son and Mrs in good health, they are worth everything compared to a lump of iron that tends to explode.

cheers man

chaloux wrote: I have to consider that perhaps I don't have the skill or knowledge to do this kind of build. Which is frustrating because I spent so much time and money making sure everything was right, clearances, ring orientation, block machining, head work and components, torque values, oiling, and just double checking everything in general.

Funk x 2.

Man sometimes, it's just bad luck. You shouldn't doubt your abilities, over the years I have watched people give up on their builds time and time again and you just don't come across like one of those guys. You should just take a break from it for awhile, that will be your best mental medicine. Then when your ready down the road, medicate that 4k. I personally have taken many breaks from Oceanic, if there is anything I have learned over the years is that there is a teething process to these kinds of builds and to get past those moments of "teething", usually some kind of break is in order. Then with a fresh head/mind, I am able to tackle what ever was causing me problems.

We have a *few* engines around here...

I'd want my .5mm valves put into the head but otherwise I guess a stock block and head would be easy. Stock sized hg, arp hardware, nothing fancy. New oem rings.

Would you suggest not using this head again?

The engine build and mechanics of the build are sound Matt, it is just the tuning that seems to get you guys in the end. On the next one, I'd save some money to get it down to the Doc, MS or somebody with a tad more experience. Detonation like that will kill any engine, regardless of how it is put together. No headgasket would have survived that sort of detonation, with maybe the exception of an oringed block. I have a lot of confidence in your engine building procedure.

That head looks like it can be saved. Will probably have to drop the valves out and have it skimmed 5-10 thousanths, but it looks good. I have saved worse looking heads.

Y'know matt that looks SO similar to what you found from PO motor when you tore it down pre-build... Is there any common thread aka part that could be operating? Like the same crank timing error that caused the det on the first motor?

Sorry to hear and see the carnage Matt.

Like Martin said if you need any help let me know. If you have a stock AAN
kicking around, then maybe that would be a short term solution..........for now.

My urq with chipped Motronic is a blast to drive. I know you guys have a few S cars
up there.

Again sorry for your dilema.

Cheers,

Craig

SO this is my plan. I have a good stock block sitting on a stand. It was the motor that came with the new head, and it's got low enough KM that that's why the PO decided to put the new head on. I think low 100km.

- remove IM and EM from head and take to machinist to check for true. if true clean up without decking (if possible), if not true deck
- disassemble good block mentioned above and reassemble using my rods, bearings etc. quick hone if needed. maybe new oil pan gaskets
- depending on cost most likely throw stock MLS head gasket in. if cheap as well, compression dropping.

My total cost should be the head and oil pan gaskets. once I have the block apart I'll know if I need rings, but I really shouldn't. I'm hoping to reuse all the seals and just git'r done. Anything I'm not thinking of?

WOOHOO! That's what I like to hear man! Make sure you have a super conservative base tune, that way you don't have to worry about detonation again.

Marc wrote:ugh. sorry to see that Matt. now that the head is off, to see if maybe your zero index was off (or your t-belt alignment) flash the timing light while cranking it over at the #1 piston....

Shoot didn't see this. I think it's more apart now. I'll ask dad.

I'll be triple checking timing when I get the rebuild done. Although... I dunno. I am 100% that we had the timing right. If I set the timing to 1* in VEMS and adjusted the TDC after trigger and distance between zero tooth and trigger in VEMS until it was spot on, how would it be off? I mean, we did this and then did it again... like I SET the timing.

I'm going to find that one log. And if it shows that it was lean with EGO on then I'm not going to bother worrying about the timing because I know the process I went through and don't know how it could have been done any different.

Anyway, status report on the potential replacement ~100km block - perfect. Rings are perfect, pistons are perfect. So I'm going to be using that block, pistons, perhaps crank... not sure. My bearings and rods. And whatever is "better" or easier of the accessories. I'm going to give the block a DIY hone so no machine costs. Woo.

Actually dad is, he took the whole block apart etc because I've been working like crazy and have no time to rebuild this car. So he is probably going to do most of it. Which is crazy and I can't ask him to do that and need to pay him or something... too generous.

Alright here's the single log I took in closed loop. I think really what it came down to is me killing it with lean, unless others (marc chris hank etc) think this level of "lean" is acceptable and not engine murdering. This is a full throttle rip in 3rd gear I believe.

Really what I should have done is, as soon as I got boost control working, mapped the fuel again instead of counting on the cells that I had mapped based on 10psi. Which were fine for 10psi - right on the money. It's clearly lean when building boost which, to my knowledge, is the opposite of what I want. Shit.

That was a shitty lesson to learn the hard way.

It is a little lean during boost onset, but only maybe for a second. After it hits any kind of real boost (above 200 kPa) it fattens right up and follows lambda target like it should. I would have put some fuel in the 130-200 kPa range, but that's it. I don't think a lean condition is what caused your det unless your wideband is not calibrated correctly (easy to check even with the engine apart).

The thing with the wideband is that it wanders. And it has from the start. I have a log of it up above, but I'll upload it again. I could see this causing issues where it thinks its rich, removes fuel, and screws it over. I'll send Marc an email about it. This log is at idle but it does this with engine off and out of the exhaust. I calibrated it like 3 times and I had a hard time getting it to stay in the range... it always wandered. Again this log is at idle, but this is the range - from about .95 to 1.05.

I was thinking the same thing Chris was, I really didn't lean out all that bad, if at all. Have you watched any of my logs? Lambda bounces around during throttle changes (letting off throttle) but once under boost it follows target lambda really nicely.

EDIT: I just watched your idle and it looks fine to me man. It's going to wonder a little bit, especially if you're not using an ISV. Another thing is that you won't get any kind of DET at adle. DET 90% of the time happens under medium to heavy load. I know most of the cars I see at work that are getting DET, get it at 50 - 75 percent throttle.

I don't see anything too crazy.

Oh yeah I'm not concerned about det at idle. Just showing how the wideband behaves. It does that while calibrating out of the car. It does, however, look way more stable in that full throttle log. I guess I won't be too concerned about it. And I will verify timing. I only ran open loop while tuning to 10psi and then when I was getting my bearings together on the way to Carlisle. Maybe 10 minutes at more than 10psi and I was monitoring everything and fuel looked okay to me. Hell maybe it is timing... I don't know.

I also don't think that wideband wander is much of an issue. They are never rock solid. A swing from 0.95 to 1.05 with the sensor out of the car would concern me a little, but most of the idle log was showing .99 to 1.01 or so which I would consider completely normal.

I really think you can rule out the lean condition here. This almost has to be timing related.

loxxrider wrote:I really think you can rule out the lean condition here. This almost has to be timing related.

:(

I'll look into it. One other thing I'm not sure about is whether the pistons were actually 8.5:1. not that tune above shows anything scary for normal compression but still...

I have to give a huge shout to Craig (highlander) and my dad. Dad has been working on my car the last few days to put'r back together. Craig came up today and the reassembled motor is in the car, head on, downpipe on, and will most likely be ready to start tomorrow. Dad and I had a hard time getting the head studs out so they cleaned up the passages in the head and also used washers from the 5cyl TDI block instead of the small ARP washers. The TDI washers will hopefully not crush the head like the ARPs did. I know Craig was tired by the end of the day, poor guy, on his healing ankle all day... probably doesn't feel too good.

Anyway, it's kinda hard to put into words but I'm so thankful to both dad and Craig. Huge respect for both of them.

Craig, are you taking my TDI engine?

WOOHOO! Great work guys!

And finally, some pics from Carlisle. I wish I woulda sucked it up and taken more pix since my car was dead, but I just wasn't motivated. Ah well, next year.

Sleepy Maddex, early morning.


Open road, take me to Carlisle!


What a Caravan


Dat UrQuatt


"Mine like this car!"


Justin's car *ALMOST* running.


Dreary Sunday morning. Maddex was still in the tent sleeping.


Since I haven't seen any other pix of my car at the show I had to put one up! Woohoo distracting backgrounds and rancho suspension

Looks great!