The Project Pad

Or... could you maybe snap a photo or two?

The two things I'm interested in are whether the clutch is hydraulic or cable-operated, and whether the shifter shaft comes out the side of the front housing like on the 016.

Shifter comes out the rear like o1a

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Bummer! I guess that rules those housings out.

I can do 20v measures

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Hey thanks but I think I'm set!

I picked up a spare 016 from Austin today, and took some measurements off a 7A block he had.

My notes are still in the car but I'll post them here when I get a chance.

Okay well, it turns out I'm not quite set. I was in a bit of a hurry yesterday and neglected to measure a couple of things I should have. Perhaps someone can supply the missing info?

What I did get is as follows:
* The crank flange sits 4.9mm farther out (meaning toward the transmission) than the transmission mounting surface.
* The "snout" O.D. I measured at 43.03mm but it had a little rust on it and my caliper isn't the greatest so it may really be 43.0.
* The overall depth of the pilot bearing bore is 24mm.

The most important measurement I missed is how far the "snout" on the crank sticks out from the flywheel mounting surface. Once that's known, the depth of the pilot bearing bore relative to the flywheel mounting surface can be calculated, and that's one of the most critical dimensions.

I also didn't measure the I.D. of the pilot bearing bore as there was a bearing present that made that impossible. Which is a little weird since it was a 7A motor which should not have had one, but there it was.

It also comes to mind that the installed bearing might have been one of those that's closed on the far end, so my "pilot bearing bore depth" measurement above may have been to the back of the bearing and not the actual bore in the crank. I should have paid more attention to that. If someone has a crank with no bearing in it, or a bearing that's not closed on the far end, maybe you could measure the depth and see if the number I got was right?

And lastly I didn't measure the O.D. of the flywheel mounting flange on the crank because I didn't think it was relevant, but it might be a good thing to know just for reference.

Well here's one interesting tidbit I came up with. The B3 Bentley has diagrams under the 012 transmission section showing how it attaches to both 4-cylinder and 5-cylinder engines:

It looks like those views are from the engine side.

And here's another interesting one, a photo I took of the 016 bellhousing with the 012 diagram and 4-cylinder bolt pattern overlaid:

It's not perfect, but gives an idea where the challenges lie.

I note in alxdgr8's thread he found that only one bolt hole lined up, but it looks from the above like two should line up... the one on the left labeled "2" and the uppermost of the two on the right labeled "2".

Why are you so intent on using the 016? I saw on MG your running an ur diff, FYI most 1.8t 01a's are 3.89....

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Primary reason is I want the locking center diff.

And there are a bunch of secondary reasons. I already own two 016's (three if you count the housingless pile of parts I have on the shelf) and they're paid for... good 01E's aren't cheap! And for the torque/HP I want to make, I don't think an 01A would be reliable. Also many 01As and 5-speed 01Es are geared pretty short... I like to have a tall top gear so the engine isn't screaming when I drive on the highway. My Saab does about 1900 RPM at 65 MPH on the highway and 99% of the time still makes plenty of power... it doesn't make sense to me to have my more powerful Audi spinning 3000+ RPM under the same conditions.

I'd have liked to keep the center locker as well..., but anyway I got my tdi 01e shipped for under 1k...

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Interesting, I hadn't seen those two pictures before. I'll do some investigating on the 07k pattern...

Well just for everyone's information, I found one place that a solution will *not* be coming from in mating an 016 to this engine... Kennedy Engineering.

I sent them a nice detailed email inquiring about getting an adapter plate from 016 to VAG 4-cylinder pattern, including the photo I posted above of the tranny with the overlaid image. Here's what I got back:

Kennedy Engineering wrote:We do not adapt the Rabbit/Jetta engine to the Audi 5000 trans. We only adapt it to VW or Porsche transaxles.
The photo is not of an Audi 5000 trans.

Well yeah, duh, it's not an Audi 5000 tranny... it's an Audi 200 tranny. Same bolt pattern, so an adapter for a 5K tranny would work, but I guess it's not worth their time to figure that out.

Oh well, onward and elseward...

What are your HP goals? An 07k will make enough to destroy an 016 without even sweating. It just seems like a whole lot of effort. If you don't want that much power one could argue a good ol 5 cyl is much easier

Well, for me it's kind of a multidimensional thing, and HP is only one of the dimensions. My HP goal is pretty modest... while I'd love to see 400 WHP, I think I'd be happy with 350.

Are 016 trannies really that much weaker than 01E's? I had the sense that they were pretty close in strength. Also I think torque breaks transmissions more than power does... a lot of people are running setups that peak with very high boost for high torque, then taper toward the redline. I go for a flatter boost curve... my current setup peaks at 21 PSI but is still at 15+ at 7000. So I don't make insane torque anywhere, but the "area under the curve" which is really what makes the car go, is substantial.

There's also the angle that if I'm going to break a transmission, I'd rather break a $150 one that I have a pile of parts lying around for, than a $1000 one for which I have no spare parts and is harder to find a replacement for.

And then there's the locking-center-diff thing... that's a biggie for me and of course only the 016 has it. I'm actually working to see if a lockable torsen center diff can be created... than I'd have the best of both worlds!

But as I said above, for me it's more than HP. The size difference is important... I'm having a hard time keeping the engine cool enough with my current setup and would love to be able to put a radiator in front of the engine rather than beside it. Weight too, of course less is always better.

Another aspect is the tech. I love fooling around with new tech, so the VVT is enticing to me, as is the computer-controlled oil pressure.

And lastly there's just the irony of getting more HP out of an engine I paid $100 for than the $1,200 one that's currently in the car.

I agree 100% which is why I am doing the swap. I have also been through all of this. 400-450 wheel in second gear is right where they start to break. The shitty thing about the 016 is if you lock the diff it breaks the transmission. But if you don't lock the diff it makes you want to kill yourself. The 01E is MUCH stronger, there are cars running 1000whp on stock gears. You just have to replace the second gear syncro and collar to the upgraded one of it hasn't been done already.

With my high biased center diff and wavetrack in the rear I don't miss the locker at all

Interesting!

One nice thing I've got set up on the Megasquirt is boost-by-gear so I can limit the boost in lower gears to prevent transmission oopsies. That can help the second gear thing... of course it could also help with an 01E with a weak first.

When you talk about not missing the locker, are you talking about "spirited" street driving or on the track, or low-traction situations like rain or snow?

From having a Quaife in my Saab I formed the impression it would be great in situations where the wheels had greatly differing traction like when cornering on a track or on a dry twisty road. But in situations where the drive wheels had comparable traction, it didn't really help any, and often sometimes made things worse by turning a 1-wheel-spinning situation into a 2-wheel-spinning situation. The latter is especially bad on a FWD car because you lose steering - the car just plows straight ahead.

Of course the situation's a bit different when talking about a center diff and F-R traction vs. side-to-side traction but the underlying principles apply.

I think my opinion's also affected a bit by the number of times I've seen people in newer Audis (with torsen center diffs) have trouble getting up hills in bad weather when my car had no trouble on the same hill at the same time. But unlike many people I run snow tires on my car so it's not really an apples-apples comparison.

Honestly Eric, I have never had a problem driving my 80 with its 01A in the snow. I picked up a friend to go get parts for his truck in it, and drove through a near blizzard with no problem. I never locked the rear diff, and never lost traction, unless I wanted to. I was on snows as well then.

My bias is definitely towards track driving. But an 01E or 01A with a locked rear diff is pretty damn close in rain or snow. By the way you can lock the Wavetrac

Honestly I am just trying to save you a ton of work. The 07K swap is a monster of a swap, in hindsight I would have had a running car right now if I had just done a 2.5l build with a CNC and pimped out head.

But, I think it will be good long term for all of the reasons above and I can replace the motor for a few hundered, it's everything bolted to it that gets expensive.

Yeah I know!

One thing I struggle with is how much work I want to put into this... although budget is a big factor too. The $1K I'd spend on an 01E could buy a lot of other conversion parts!

But I also don't want to rule it out completely. Can I toss out a few 01E questions to you guys?

* O1E uses same center driveshaft as 016, correct? I don't have the original one from my 80 so if it needs that I'd have a problem.
* Special mounting brackets are required, yes?
* I know this must depend some on the linkage, but is the shifter feel with an 01E any better than the 016? One of the few things I don't like about my car is that the shifter feels like it's anchored in quicksand.

The other thing that kills me about the 01E is all the variants and their gear and final drive ratios. How do you figure that stuff out? I know 20V.org has a list, but it seems like for every code they list there are 5 that they don't. For example right now on ebay there are an HVM and a GYY code transmission, but 20V doesn't list either of those.

The mount arms can be picked up fairly easily. I can put you in touch with he who is making mine.

As for the shifter feel, it depends on your setup. I will be using a JHM shifter with a modified UrS linkage. I have been told it should feel pretty much like the 01A. You can also pick up a B5 S4 shifter box and linkage to work with it.

As for codes, I probably should have looked I to that more myself. I got a deal I couldn't pass up o. For my UrS unit though.

Oh, the driveshaft you need is from a UrQ/4KQ. So you should be good there.

Keep an eye out for a cheap 01E from a UrS or one that's newer but needs repair. A 5-sp 01E from a UrS car should go for $300 or less in good/drivable condition, or a 6-sp one from a C5/B5/B6 that would likely start at $400-ish and need some repair.

Not sure if you're aware, but the early 5-sp 01Es can be made 6-sp if that's what you're after. If I'm not mistaken, you can even update the narrow first, non-flexible to the later style.

If you're keen on keeping the 3.89 rear, there are still some 01Es that are compatible but in doing so, you've diminished your overall market for spares/repairs.

Here's a few links that may help:
http://12v.org/urs/charlie_smith/01E/
http://forums.quattroworld.com/s4s6/msgs/296990.phtml
http://www.s2forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74492

In regards to the adapter plate, it's going to have to be pretty thick. Consider this. The 01A/E uses a pilot bearing in the flywheel with a traditional I5. The 016 sticks out much further and uses the crank pilot beating. Fast forward to the 07k, the pilot bearing is back in the crank for using the 01e. It uses the 1.8t pilot bearing.

I have been accumulating transmissions. The current project is a B5 s4 01e getting 3rd and 4th from an allroad 01e. That gets rid of the annoying gap between 2nd and third you hear about.

I thought the annoying gap was 1st to Second...

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When you have a V8 you don't need 1st.

Greg W.