The Project Pad

what if I told you I have a local twin to me? VEMS user on his 3rd rebuild... this time on a VR6... also dyno tuned... cylinder 1 & 2...

To many big injector VEMS users experiencing similar failures has got to definitely be causing some concern to many...
Let me bump up 1 of my favorite Audi 90 builds here on TPP to see if the answers relate to ours...

It's concerning for sure. What are the other common denominators? Tuner? Injectors?

loxxrider wrote:It's concerning for sure. What are the other common denominators? Tuner? Injectors?

Modified Bosch injectors, Same tuner, VEMS... On his third melted piston failure...
Please PM me for more details...

The real kicker is this,... Brand New wire loom throughout...

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OB:

Again, probably i'm just as bad as OB saying 2+2=6.... but I also deal with these microcontrollers a lot and see a lot of weird stuff!

I find it very interested that you said this:

on a VR6 - Cylinders #1 & #2 were mangled.

on every 5 cylinder, only #5 was mangled.

To give you a smoking water gun(Still a tin foil hat) I would implore you to find a piece of evidence where an 8 cylinder has 4 of the 8 cylinders mangled using vems.

There is a very real possibility, that the microcontroller component that is controlling fuel injectors (Again I'm talking near bullshit as I have no idea how VEMS is set up on the firmware/hardware) is either not supplying the correct volts/amps under load due to how the board is set up (ie; the components controlling the injectors are all run through a single power source in a string). The only way to know for sure would be to set up a simple little angular app or something to read the components in real time under load.

OB if you offer me an IPA I could probably point you in a very clear direction, although I'm sure Marc could explain everything much much better.

Nick, sorry for polluting the thread! Hope to see some more updates... even if they are UPS packages haha.

Mine was cylinder 3 for the record.

Lol also OBs was mostly 5 but also 4 was looking messed up too.

OB, if you'd like I will setup a multi-hour bench test on your ecu and measure cylinder to cylinder pulsewidth as I described earlier. I dont anticipate any deviation from input request pulsewidth, but I'm more than happy to put the issue to rest with a proper test.

Marc wrote:OB, if you'd like I will setup a multi-hour bench test on your ecu and measure cylinder to cylinder pulsewidth as I described earlier. I dont anticipate any deviation from input request pulsewidth, but I'm more than happy to put the issue to rest with a proper test.

No worries, you'll have my whole car for many multiple hours to test & scrutinize. I'm really honestly ok with finding & fixing the particulars of my build once I'm done. We've spoken many times about my perspective on this and it still remains... Anything and everything is suspect, including my own backyard work, which soo far doesn't look to be... (Sorry Nick I really tried keeping this about your car and your concern with the ecu. I'm sure they can find my thread and address my issues there if they chose to) ...

The issue/concern people are having with inexplicable failures will be put to rest when more concrete/conclusive evidence is gathered. Till then, all anyone is gonna see is speculative conversation about real occurrences. If I or, in this case FRP, built something wrong I think it would be pretty obvious, but soo far we're in the clear & out of that equation.

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What FRP build was involved? Not mine. People in this thread at all talking about my backyard wagon explosion. Lol

I 100% don't think it was my "build" at fault though. Wiring or VEMS. Nothing else.

I got mixed up man... Sorry... You have too many projects... Thought this was the sedan thread for second

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Right thread, somehow the Avant got pulled into this one. I never had an issue with a melted cylinder in the sedan luckily. Stock engine and built engine. Plenty of other carnage though or course.

mushasho wrote:what if I told you I have a local twin to me? VEMS user on his 3rd rebuild... this time on a VR6... also dyno tuned... cylinder 1 & 2...

Update:
Definitive cause on this car has been solved... car was tuned to a certain point, wastage system failure (line or unit) was causing an overboost situation that placed the car in an area of the map that was not tuned & was very possibly taxing the fuel system causing lean conditions.

At least this one is definite.

mushasho wrote:

mushasho wrote:what if I told you I have a local twin to me? VEMS user on his 3rd rebuild... this time on a VR6... also dyno tuned... cylinder 1 & 2...

Update:
Definitive cause on this car has been solved... car was tuned to a certain point, wastage system failure (line or unit) was causing an overboost situation that placed the car in an area of the map that was not tuned & was very possibly taxing the fuel system causing lean conditions.

At least this one is definite.

Yours or Nicks?

Mcstiff wrote:

mushasho wrote:

mushasho wrote:what if I told you I have a local twin to me? VEMS user on his 3rd rebuild... this time on a VR6... also dyno tuned... cylinder 1 & 2...

Update:
Definitive cause on this car has been solved... car was tuned to a certain point, wastage system failure (line or unit) was causing an overboost situation that placed the car in an area of the map that was not tuned & was very possibly taxing the fuel system causing lean conditions.

At least this one is definite.

Yours or Nicks?

Lol... Neither... Was examining another melted piston scenario...

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loxxrider wrote:I disagree. The oil gets emulsified before it ever gets into the can in my experience.

my2000apb wrote:yeah, keep that gross shit outta my engine

Mcstiff wrote:Where does this happen? In the tube between the crankcase and can? Not much room or time in there.

Every time the engine and catch can heats or cools condensation forms. When the engine gets hot enough the condensation in the crankcase evaporates and exits via the? Breather! Which leads to the? Catch can! The function of the catch can is to condense hot vapors so it does it's job. Since the catch can is not hot enough to vaporize water (crankcase and catch can condensation) and send it back into the intake or to the atmosphere, the condensed water and oil inevitably emulsify.

loxxrider wrote:Yes, it happens in the hose between crank case and can sometimes. Not much room or time? Condensation doesn't need any room to happen (just a change in temperature and a high enough dew point) and it has plenty of time to mix with the condensed water as the two stick to the wall of the tube in a kind of boundary layer. As the water vapor and oil-filled air passes through the tube, it has plenty of opportunity to mix together and emulsify little by little over time.

I'm not saying emulsification doesn't happen in the catch can, I'm just saying that there are conditions which dictate that the emulsification happens long before the can. You may not ever see this condition due to your likely much lower dew points on average in CO than in a more tropical climate like where I live, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen to others!

The point is, re-route the oil back to the pan if you want, but check the lines and inside of your can after a while. If it looks milky, I wouldn't keep routing it in there. If not, then keep it up!

I just had to post this...

Mike Kojima @ MotoIQ wrote:
The cool stuff is what is inside. In the can which can be disassembled in case you want to thoroughly clean it out, is this green extruded heating element. Coolant from the throttle body or some other source is routed through here. When an engine is started, it expels quite a bit of water vapor from the blowby gasses, as water is a combustion byproduct. The vapor is like a heavy stream for the first few minutes of operation until the engine is completely warmed up.

In a conventional self-draining catch can, this vapor condenses into liquid water and is returned into the engine's crankcase often in the form of an oil-water emulsion that looks like baby diarrhea. The problem is way worse in cold weather. Needless to say that this crap is not good for your engine's bearings as a lubricant and can also contribute to internal corrosion. Valve springs, cylinder walls, and camshafts can be quickly ruined by this sort of contamination.

The Radium Engineering catch can works to eliminate this by trapping the initial water heavy vapor and letting it condense at the bottom of the can where it is trapped before it can flow back into the engine. Here it is heated by the engine coolant in the heater at the bottom of the tank that drives off the moisture. This works great especially in cold weather where condensation is heavy.

Once the oil is above the level of the heating element, it can drain through a filter screen back into the crankcase. There is a dipstick in the can in case you want to monitor the oil level. If the oil level starts to rise, that is an indicator that the lower filter screen is clogged and needs to be cleaned.

Once the vapor is in the can it goes through a separator plate then a large volume steel mesh filter element before the clean and oilless filtered blowby gas is vented, either through a small breather filter of routed back into the intake tract. .

Cool!

Very cool!