The Project Pad

What about some VW reduction boxes?

ringbearer wrote:What about some VW reduction boxes?

Please tell me more....

HOLY BALLS I JUST DISCOVERED THAT THE ALLROAD IN EUROPE WAS OFFERED WITH A LOW RANGE O1E!!!!

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_241.pdf

sweet Jesus. awesome stuff

VW bus reduction boxes. Old and heavy but they will get you taller gears and a little more ground clearance.

Find that O1E!

I found a thread on TDIclub.com where scott @ advanced automotion mentions that he has a few and the complication of the hydraulic controls for it. The good news is that it may have actually been offered in the US (no idea how I haven't heard about it before..) but the bad news is that the controls are tightly integrated with the ECU so making it would may be difficult if not running a 2.5tdi or 2.7tt. More research to come...

OK I plugged the allroad dual range 01e ratios into my transmission comparison spreadsheet and came up with a few different combinations to look at. The dual range allroad box has a 1.54 : 1.00 low range, which in other words means that the engine spins 54% faster for any given vehicle speed when in low range. If I were to take an dual range allroad box (which has a lower 1st gear) and put a 4.11 final drive in it, I would get a 65% increase in engine speed for a given vehicle speed over the stock 01a. For comparison purposes, here are first gear effective ratios:

CQ 01a...................................................14.385 : 1.00
B5 S4 01e................................................14.385 : 1.00
allroad dual range 01e w/ 4.11 final................23.735 : 1.00
B5 S4 01E w/ allroad dual range.....................22.153 : 1.00

This would help a lot, but I'm still not sure it would give me enough torque multiplication to crawl on the stock 7a. Maybe a 1.8t or v6 + the dual range box would work. Time to at least look around and see if I can't find a dual range allroad trans for decent money.

VW Self Study of the low-range Allroad: http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_241.pdf

Wiring diagrams (in German): www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachme ... tId=698183

Rare I4 80q/100q 01A trans in europe had a 4.55 final drive
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php? ... e&start=25

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Audi-80-B3-89-Q- ... Sw65FXtd0y

Thanks Alex!

I spent some more time on the phone with with Scott today discussing options. He has all the parts to build me a dual range 01E but it would be about $4k for the dual range tail section or ~$5300 for a complete transmission. And that would only get me 1.54 : 1.00 gear reduction.

For comparison, a stock 4 or 6 cylinder Toyota pickup comes with something in the 2.88:1 range and a popular upgrade is going 4.7:1 (for serious rock crawlers you can get double and triple cases which would give you 22.09:1 and 103.82 respectively, but I'm not interested in going anywhere near that territory).

Ultimately we came full circle and Scott agreed that he thought an automatic with a torque converter would be the best option for the application and intended use. Back to looking for a good donor A4...

Auto certainly sounds like the cheapest option. You could go all out and do a T1/T2 Touareg trans/transfer case/axles, but you'd probably have to raise it up more And I'm sure everything is CANBUS. But a V8 Touareg setup would be pretty badass, and it's high/low range and most V8's came with the optional locking rear (center locker standard). They've been getting pretty cheap! Lots o' fab.

Wow those pics are awesome. This car screams anti-everythingcarscene. Not too often a battery is the thing that dies (for us non-rock crawlers). Well done.

alxdgr8 wrote:Auto certainly sounds like the cheapest option. You could go all out and do a T1/T2 Touareg trans/transfer case/axles, but you'd probably have to raise it up more And I'm sure everything is CANBUS. But a V8 Touareg setup would be pretty badass, and it's high/low range and most V8's came with the optional locking rear (center locker standard). They've been getting pretty cheap! Lots o' fab.

oh man... planting seeds

chaloux wrote:Wow those pics are awesome. This car screams anti-everythingcarscene. Not too often a battery is the thing that dies (for us non-rock crawlers). Well done.

Haha thanks! It is certainly counter to the typical euro/import scene. I'm glad projecpad exists for nutters like me to feel at home.

Speaking of the battery, I got the replacement installed yesterday. I was planning to get the biggest Odyssey AGM I could fit (65-PC1750), and discovered that my local Batteries + Bulbs carries an alternative X2 Power made by Northstar. It is literally the same battery, from the same factory as the Odyssey, only it carries a one year longer warranty (5 year vs. 4 year). This is a dual purpose/deep cycle battery which is what I really need to be able to power the winch. It also happens to be the most powerful battery they sell and it just barely fits into the car with some slight massaging of the factory battery tray. It's rated at 930 CCA and weighs about DOUBLE what the one I took out did. That should do it!

This followed me home today:



1998 A4 1.8T Quattro automatic w/ 166k miles and a blown head gasket but otherwise in really nice shape. Looks like someone really cared about this car, which is encouraging. Starts and runs great so the plan is to fix it and drive it for a bit to be sure everything is working well before swapping the engine and trans into the CQ. It's actually in really nice shape so I think I should have no problem making back the purchase price by parting it out. woohoo!

Wouldn't you want something with a center locker if you really want it to perform?

pkw wrote:Wouldn't you want something with a center locker if you really want it to perform?

Sure, if you can point me toward a transaxle with low range gearing and a center locker I'm all ears. So far as I can tell it does not exist in a production application.

I stuck my A4tq in my parents slightly muddy yard. It did the 1-wheel peel despite being a quattro. It eventually spun more than one tire and made huge ruts while pulling another stuck vehicle (A6q or the Astro, can't remember).

Oh, that had the automatic in it. Keep that in mind, that the center doesn't lock up worth a crap on slippery stuff.

That is an interesting data point, thanks! There is 160k on that A4 trans so it is quite possible that the center diff is worn and loose.

My only experience with this trans (ZF 5HP19FLA) was in my old 2004 allroad 4.2. I took it with all season tires up a logging road to go christmas tree hunting in ~2 feet of fresh snow and for the most part it was a champ. Even pulled out a stuck pick-up that had slid off the shoulder into the ditch.... then later slid into the ditch myself and required a friend to push from behind while I drove out. LOL I think If I had better (non all-season) tires on it the thing would have had no problem.

Ultimately if I swap it in and it suck, I can always take it out and do something different. Maybe even a science project like adapting a locking center from a 4kq... or just welding it. We will see!

Looks like some old subarus have dual-range trannies. They seem to be easier to find (despite USA ones being really rare) and can mix-match with USA ratios. It seems like you could build a 4.11 FD trans with 3.545 1st and 1.592:1 low range. Basically the same as the Audi option...but possibly cheaper initially with more fab being required. Might be able to make a 4.4FD too, but then you'd need a different rear diff.

the german wrote:That is an interesting data point, thanks! There is 160k on that A4 trans so it is quite possible that the center diff is worn and loose.

My only experience with this trans (ZF 5HP19FLA) was in my old 2004 allroad 4.2. I took it with all season tires up a logging road to go christmas tree hunting in ~2 feet of fresh snow and for the most part it was a champ. Even pulled out a stuck pick-up that had slid off the shoulder into the ditch.... then later slid into the ditch myself and required a friend to push from behind while I drove out. LOL I think If I had better (non all-season) tires on it the thing would have had no problem.

Ultimately if I swap it in and it suck, I can always take it out and do something different. Maybe even a science project like adapting a locking center from a 4kq... or just welding it. We will see!

I didn't have a problem in snow either, but snow is different than mud. Mud is like ice, but slipperier. Good A/T tires will help with some of that though. A locker 016 would be ideal, any '84-87 4kq or '87-88 5kq can donate one. Later 016's had vacuum locking in lieu of the bowden cables.

alxdgr8 wrote:Looks like some old subarus have dual-range trannies. They seem to be easier to find (despite USA ones being really rare) and can mix-match with USA ratios. It seems like you could build a 4.11 FD trans with 3.545 1st and 1.592:1 low range. Basically the same as the Audi option...but possibly cheaper initially with more fab being required. Might be able to make a 4.4FD too, but then you'd need a different rear diff.

When I looked at dual range Subaru transmission options before, I dismissed them because what I found used a transfer case behind the trans; basically just a miniaturized truck drivetrain. If the FD is a transaxle that would certainly be a cheaper option than the dual range 01e. I would just need to see if I can modify it to get more reduction. I'll do some more investigating tonight :-)

Look up the EA82 trans, seems like it's integrated

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alxdgr8 wrote:Look up the EA82 trans, seems like it's integrated

Awesome! thanks Alex!