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Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:08 pm
by Hank
Static flow numbers are only part of the equation. You are getting a fabulous reading at various amounts of lift on the valve, but the story of how long it is at those lifts is not completely told. With a roller rocker cam, you can ramp up and ramp down at extremely steeper angles. This amounts to about 25-30% more flow when you are not playing "keep the cam on the bucket" routine with a bucket over valve design.
You can see this with the cams below
The left is 07k and the right is 7a. Now remember, the 07k is a ratio'ed rocker arm, so height of lobe can't be really considered, but what is interesting is the ramp up angle and the duration on the cam. It basically paints the picture of why a roller rocker is the bee's knees.
On a side note, pistons are shipping out as we speak!
Hank
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:49 pm
by chaloux
Fuckin' told you guys
LOL
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:07 pm
by 2.5TYPE44
Don't worry, I'm sure you will be more than happy and impressed with your built "old school,junky,non 07k boat anchor" :-) At this point you might as well give up and go 07k. I know someone who would love to accept your scrap iron of a 5 cylinder motor you have going on.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:14 pm
by chaloux
May as well just give it away!
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:28 pm
by 2.5TYPE44
Yep! I'll even pay for the shipping. Jeff can just crate it all up and ship it my way. Might as well throw the clutch in with it.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:54 pm
by themagellan
Amazing looking at even the difference in quality of metal. Getting hard to rationalize big power from a 3b/aan in a certain price bracket vs the 07K
Oh, and....
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:04 pm
by pilihp2
themagellan wrote:Amazing looking at even the difference in quality of metal. Getting hard to rationalize big power from a 3b/aan in a certain price bracket vs the 07K
Oh, and....
I just died
I literally am dead.
Oh god.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:24 pm
by chaloux
New avatar
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:24 pm
by loxxrider
themagellan wrote:Amazing looking at even the difference in quality of metal. Getting hard to rationalize big power from a 3b/aan in a certain price bracket vs the 07K
Oh, and....
Quality of metal? I think you are just looking at a different design, not different/better metallurgy.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:17 am
by Colin2750
themagellan wrote:Amazing looking at even the difference in quality of metal. Getting hard to rationalize big power from a 3b/aan in a certain price bracket vs the 07K
One is cast while the other is not. It's also hollow, for more lightness and other fun things.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:29 am
by Hank
LOL
Well done.
You can get 07k flow out of an older AAN based, it just turns into a six thousand dollar head before you realize what happened to you
Right Nick? 6 thousand dollars can buy a lot of adapter parts, lots of labor and lots of spare 500$ 07k's when tuning doesn't go as planned
Hank
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:34 pm
by Dutchbroracer
Hank wrote:LOL
Well done.
You can get 07k flow out of an older AAN based, it just turns into a six thousand dollar head before you realize what happened to you
Right Nick? 6 thousand dollars can buy a lot of adapter parts, lots of labor and lots of spare 500$ 07k's when tuning doesn't go as planned
Hank
Holy balls..I'm so poor.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:36 pm
by vt10vt
Dutchbroracer wrote:Hank wrote:LOL
Well done.
You can get 07k flow out of an older AAN based, it just turns into a six thousand dollar head before you realize what happened to you
Right Nick? 6 thousand dollars can buy a lot of adapter parts, lots of labor and lots of spare 500$ 07k's when tuning doesn't go as planned
Hank
Holy balls..I'm so poor.
I'd have been happy SS exhaust valves lol
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:12 pm
by 2.5TYPE44
$6,000.00 for your cylinder head...?
are you running titanium lifters, valves, and cams?
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:18 pm
by loxxrider
Cams alone are $1500 retail... The check I wrote for the components you listed MINUS cams was still over ~$1k. So you're talking $2500 just in components potentially, plus however many man hours the port job requires. For a development head I'd think that number is in the hundreds. For a regular head I'd think it is at least 30-40 if done by someone experienced with the exact procedure. Not to mention the work required to clearance the combustion chambers for supersized valves, etc.
At shop rates, it is easy for me to understand where that number comes from.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:01 pm
by 2.5TYPE44
Thank goodness I didn't do a development head and went with oversized valves instead of super sized valves. I got cheap off the shelf Cat cams too at about 799.00 It helped to keep the cost down or Jeff gave me the hook up on everything.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:33 pm
by Hank
To match the flow of an 07k with all things considered, you would likely have a 30-40 hour port job@ 80-100$/HR by somebody professional like Jeff on a bench
1200$ CATs
300$ valve springs
250$ Ti Retainers
400$ in valves
75 in decking
250 in adjustable cam gear
50 hot tank
Core(7a modified to turbo spec, around 400$, AAN in useable shape, around 450$)
If you get ambitious with the cams and have to have solids to match the 9300rpm rev potential of the 07k, you are talking another 500$ in solid lifters and several hours of shimming, along with the 750$ Ferrea Valve Springs required to get over 13.5mm worth of lift instead of the 300$ supertech ones.
Heads add up VERY quickly, which is the reason the 07k is such a cool idea. Basically all that cost above on ebay for 200 BIN, but about 1800$ worth of adapters/pans/flywheel and another 2000 in manifolds.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:52 pm
by Mcstiff
And the 07k still has headroom for better cams, valves, and porting; of course that doubles your investment but if you put 4k into a urI5 head what's next?
I have a spreadsheet comparing the cost of an AAN with Rods (stock head) and an 07K build; the 07K is more money but part of that is because I have this AAN longblock that I can't seem to give away
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:00 pm
by mushasho
Mcstiff wrote:I have a spreadsheet comparing the cost of an AAN with Rods (stock head) and an 07K build; the 07K is more money but part of that is because I have this AAN longblock that I can't seem to give away
that's really only further skewed by the fact that the 07k also requires pistons, something not added on your AAN build...
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:01 pm
by Hank
All things aside, the real benefit comes if the unthinkable happens. Drop a valve on a 700whp I5, you are out 7-10 grand. Do it on a built 07k, you are out 2-3 grand.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:18 pm
by amd is the best
ANYWAY, this car will be a 3B. We can go back and forth all day but ultimately I wanted to keep the old SHITTY engine with a poor lifter design, pay "TONS" of money to only SLIGHTLY outflow (possibly) the $500 junkyard counterpart and we'll see how my horrible choices pan out. Turbo is probably "too big" too.
For the record, the head didn't cost $6000... To give real rough figures we'll say the parts cost ~$1500 (no CATS) and the labor was ~$1500 and I shopped around for the CATS and scored them at $1000. So I'm around $4000 give or take for a completely built cylinder head with REAL cams (7A's are a joke in comparison). All work was performed by a trusted individual with a reputation to produce reliable performance and longevity. I would have paid double for the labor knowing that it was done correctly.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:53 pm
by chaloux
amd is the best wrote:ANYWAY, this car will be a 3B. We can go back and forth all day but ultimately I wanted to keep the old SHITTY engine with a poor lifter design, pay "TONS" of money to only SLIGHTLY outflow (possibly) the $500 junkyard counterpart and we'll see how my horrible choices pan out. Turbo is probably "too big" too.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:50 pm
by ringbearer
And back on track...
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:18 am
by 20VAvant
amd is the best wrote:ANYWAY, this car will be a 3B. We can go back and forth all day but ultimately I wanted to keep the old SHITTY engine with a poor lifter design, pay "TONS" of money to only SLIGHTLY outflow (possibly) the $500 junkyard counterpart and we'll see how my horrible choices pan out. Turbo is probably "too big" too.
For the record, the head didn't cost $6000... To give real rough figures we'll say the parts cost ~$1500 (no CATS) and the labor was ~$1500 and I shopped around for the CATS and scored them at $1000. So I'm around $4000 give or take for a completely built cylinder head with REAL cams (7A's are a joke in comparison). All work was performed by a trusted individual with a reputation to produce reliable performance and longevity. I would have paid double for the labor knowing that it was done correctly.
Re: Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:00 pm
by Hank
That probably wasn't the best dump location for 07k infoz Nick. Sorry about that. I can weed that out.
I think your plan is stellar and done right. You are going to make loads of usable power and have a wicked car. i can't wait for an SFest rip.
Hank