The Project Pad

40v4kq wrote:Don't hurt my trans! Have fun Ben.

hmmm yeah... wonder where that trans came from...

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SO, just a bit of an update, Battle Born was an awesome time and Oceanic made the trip back without a single hiccup! But, this morning it started to make some nasty valve train noises and misfire a bit. So, something is up there. I wouldn't be surprised if I burnt an exhaust valve from some pre-det I was getting on the trip down to Vegas.

With that said, my winter plans are to pull the head off and go through it. It's going to get some SS valves, TI retainers and maybe a bit of port work. And while the head is off I want to add some aftermarket pistons and main studs. Then I think it's time I jump on the E85 or Watermeth train. I'm leaving a lot of potential power on the table right now because I'm not running either. Anyways, tonight I'm going to put a scope down the sparkplug holes to see what damage I did this weekend.

Oh LORD, that high ringing exhaust. Hank's headers ftw. You don't have an exhaust dump do you?

my heart goes out to your beautiful car Ben. I've seen this thing basically since the beginning. Hope the damage isnt THAT bad. GL with it. See you in about a month

Wish I coulda gotten a ride in this awesome thing.

Great seeing you Ben.


Also. Hearing your car made me decide I need a header.

Like effing bad.

Well... sigh... my worst fears were confirmed tonight. I used the lab scope from work to examine the damage in cylinder #1...

First signs of damage I saw... melted down piston edges. (most likely from the DET from overboosting I was getting on the way down to vegas)...



then I moved on to see this...





and I was thinking hmmm ok... looking bad... but not THAT bad... but then I saw this and my heart sank...





You can CLEARLY see a valve imprint on the top of the piston... and WTH is the valve? Most likely launched through the turbo...

So... ya.

EDIT: Oops, I'm a tard. That's the valve relief I am seeing.

Yar, that be some det. How much boost were you running and what was overboost? What is the hotside a/r?

Bugga :(

Sorry, Ben.

chaloux wrote:Yar, that be some det. How much boost were you running and what was overboost? What is the hotside a/r?

The reason I was getting overboost is I had the Tial MVR hooked up wrong. That right there is the main reason. The hotside A/R is .63.

dang, that sucks on the det. That is just the valve relief on the piston, not an impact!

You should ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS set overboost fuel cut to a safe level, especially when testing/tuning a new setup!

I don't think it was the overboost that killed it in this situation. When I got in the car, it was detonating like crazy even at a reasonable 20psi on spring pressure. I think the new turbo's air flow just leaned everything out. I have never heard detonation that bad in my life and have to believe the majority of the damage was done on the drive.

Hank wrote:I don't think it was the overboost that killed it in this situation. When I got in the car, it was detonating like crazy even at a reasonable 20psi on spring pressure. I think the new turbo's air flow just leaned everything out. I have never heard detonation that bad in my life and have to believe the majority of the damage was done on the drive.

actually hank, when you got in the car it wasn't at 20psi, unless you just didn't have road to get up there. when I went for a ride he was hitting fuel cut at 290kpa due to the wastegate routing (and yes, horrific detonation, everywhere).

Ya, I learned a few lessons this go around.

#1: I have been super gunshy about adjusting my tune myself, so I just need to jump in with both feet and play with it and learn the system.

#2: If I know that I am running into an issue (overboost) address it before damage happens. I let it go because I was just trying to get the car together and drivable, I thought that I could just deal with it later... mistake.

#3: I need to be on E85 to really justify this setup. I am leaving heaps of power on the table because of only running 91 octane. AND it just so happens, that I have a gas station 45 minutes from my house that carries E85.

SO, I guess this means I have an excuse to build it better, faster and stronger than before.

Eeeeee sad times. I have been super careful with my tune this time, checking fueling multiple times and starting with low boost. I have never heard det... or I don't know what it sounds like in a car but I've listened to sound files of it.

Jump into VEMS! It's easy to learn and pretty intuitive. Change a setting and see what it does.

So you didn't change the tune at all from the old to new turbo setup? Yikes lol. And also... e85 is nice . You've obviously been bitten by that bug being around hank et al.

85oceanic wrote:Ya, I learned a few lessons this go around.

#1: I have been super gunshy about adjusting my tune myself, so I just need to jump in with both feet and play with it and learn the system.

#2: If I know that I am running into an issue (overboost) address it before damage happens. I let it go because I was just trying to get the car together and drivable, I thought that I could just deal with it later... mistake.

#3: I need to be on E85 to really justify this setup. I am leaving heaps of power on the table because of only running 91 octane. AND it just so happens, that I have a gas station 45 minutes from my house that carries E85.

SO, I guess this means I have an excuse to build it better, faster and stronger than before.

#1: Yep, me too. I need to be more involved, especially with such an elevation difference between Vegas and SLC.
#3: Yep, me too. Hence the 1200cc injectors going in now. E85 is 25 minutes from my house.

And of course we both sat shotgun in Mr. Green's beast.....that doesn't help with the sickness.

290kpa is 42psi for those who dont realize how bad he was overboosting

Don't forget atmosphere.

So 28 psi then. I wasnt aware if that was taken ibto consideration. Everyone is different

For VEMS yes. Atmo+boost. So 290kpa absolute, 190 boost.

Im just glad the motor didnt go kaboom :(

chaloux wrote:For VEMS yes. Atmo+boost. So 290kpa absolute, 190 boost.

*at ~sea level

Yeah yeah lol

First of all, sorry to see this Ben :(

Secondly, every standalone I've ever used considers 101.325 kPa to be atmospheric pressure, not zero kPa.

85oceanic wrote:Ya, I learned a few lessons this go around.

#1: I have been super gunshy about adjusting my tune myself, so I just need to jump in with both feet and play with it and learn the system.

#2: If I know that I am running into an issue (overboost) address it before damage happens. I let it go because I was just trying to get the car together and drivable, I thought that I could just deal with it later... mistake.

#3: I need to be on E85 to really justify this setup. I am leaving heaps of power on the table because of only running 91 octane. AND it just so happens, that I have a gas station 45 minutes from my house that carries E85.

SO, I guess this means I have an excuse to build it better, faster and stronger than before.

Ben, jumping into fueling is about the easiest and most worthwhile (which you had to learn the hard way unfortunately) kind of tuning you can do on the car. Just monitor your wideband/logs and add/subtract fuel accordingly! You don't have to worry about going too rich or too lean for a short period of time, its when you spend a lot of time under a condition like that, that problems start to happen.

Definitely don't touch timing unless you know what you're doing. A base map from Marc will get you in the safe range where you don't need to worry about it. When it comes time to dial it in, the dyno is the way to go. Don't bother doing it any other way in my opinion (unless you have knock ears, EGT, a good driver to drive while you tune, and lots of space).

Definitely set the overboost fuel cut to a safe place like Ed said. I had my HX52 on with no wastegate and I could just nail it with no fear of breaking anything because the boost cut will save it every time.

I agree, you don't want to run 91 octane with that setup. With 93 though, one could argue that you'd have plenty of available power. Consider a flex fuel setup so you don't always have to have E85 and don't have to care about testing it.




I wonder what the cause was... was it simply from a lean condition over a long period of time making the mixture very hot or was it from too much timing advance? Either one could induce det. With Hank and Marc riding with you, I'm sure someone noticed one of the two...