DE80q wrote:This will get interesting in a hurry. Fair warning on the megasquirt though, it can be just as expensive as VEMS. I could have bought an econo seal unit from Mark by the time my MS3X was complete.
Yeah, I know 'budget' and 'boosted' don't really fit in the same sentence together haha. I'll definitely evaluate my options before I pull the trigger on anything, but, as always, the input of experienced folks like yourself is always appreciated.
I'm not sure what you started with, but I was eyeballing the assemble-yourself MS3 kits, which puts you $400 in the hole plus ancillary costs. I imagine it can be easy to make up the difference between that and an Econoseal, but it's still around half the price to start out with, so it was my forerunner based on not-so-extensive research lol
Kevin (Sven) - 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN - 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS - 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ - 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap - 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt - 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
If you can assemble it yourself, and know everything is spot on, you can save some money there. The kit you are probably looking at will do batch fire injection, and dizzy ignition. To step up to full sequential, you will need the 3x board.
"If you can't find one, make one"
Dallastown, PA 1991 Audi 80 quattro (20vt project) 1991 Audi Coupe Quattro (project: my first 20v) 2007 Mitsubishi Raider(Dakota in disguise) 2019 Chevy Cruze RS hatch (wife's little red sporty car)
Haha thanks man! I'm going into this with the assumption that the engine is a goner, and it'll be a big plus if it just so happens to survive!
I went ahead and ordered a PnP VEMS unit for the ABH from Marc (Thanks Greg!)
Still kinda ironing out the details for feasibility, but my leading choice of hardware right now is a Lysholm LYS 1600AX off a C32 AMG. It's a twin-screw with an integrated W/A intercooler and an electromagnetic clutch to disengage. For my purposes, it'll be a little underutilized, but it's just about perfect in terms of cost/dimensions/availability. Target is 400ish crank hp @ 7-8psi, which it is more than capable of on a 4.2
Kevin (Sven) - 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN - 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS - 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ - 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap - 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt - 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
but can you please just do a single turbo? for me? Just because I've always wanted to do that!
current: -mk4 tdi wagon with some mods -TDI b3 90q, holset turbo, be strong little connecting rods! -the turbo tractor past: -11 second 90q junker -20vt swapped 90q winter beater -efi 20vt 4kq -way too many other long gone urs's, 200's 4000's, b5's
dana wrote:but can you please just do a single turbo? for me? Just because I've always wanted to do that!
Hahaha I'm open to persuasion. I just wanna do something I haven't seen done. I really like the instant, torquey response of the V8, but I just want a little more I figured a positive displacement supercharger would be a good fit.
My limiting factors are the compression ratio (could be dropped, I suppose) and the transmission (don't really wanna deal with an 01E swap)
Kevin (Sven) - 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN - 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS - 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ - 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap - 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt - 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
Dallastown, PA 1991 Audi 80 quattro (20vt project) 1991 Audi Coupe Quattro (project: my first 20v) 2007 Mitsubishi Raider(Dakota in disguise) 2019 Chevy Cruze RS hatch (wife's little red sporty car)
Nope! AYS (40v S8 motor). Unfortunately, although I toyed with the idea, I'm not swapping it into the V8 at this time. But the movers are taking FOREVER to bring the V8 from TN, so I mocked up the supercharger on the S8's engine
That said, my plan is to swap an ABZ if I blow up the ABH
Kevin (Sven) - 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN - 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS - 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ - 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap - 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt - 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
Great resource! I wish some of the pics still worked, but I'll give it a read. My current plan is to use two modified VW 16v intake manifolds flipped so they are each going over the valve covers, then fed by a Y-pipe from the intercooler exit in the rear. I need to measure the parts, but if I have enough space to the hood, I think it should work.
This guy:
Plus I think it'll look pretty badass.
Kevin (Sven) - 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN - 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS - 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ - 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap - 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt - 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
Turns out the ABH snapped a timing belt, inexplicably (it was a year old). I couldn't find another ABH for parts, so I sourced an ABZ!
I'll save you the reading and mostly pic-dump, but I wanted to document what all is required to swap an ABZ into a V8.
There were a few routes I could go:
1. Swap ABZ heads onto ABH and run ABH management
2. Swap ABZ entirely
3. Swap ABZ running ABH management
Since my ABH was pretty high-mileage, and I didn't want to integrate a new harness, I decided to go route 3 and try and convert the ABZ to ABH, but with higher compression and lower mileage.
Step 1) Crank trigger - This mod is not needed if you're not using stock V8 management
The ABZ block does not have provisions for a crank trigger. I took some measurements and 3D printed jigs to hand-machine a cutout in the same location, using common geometry as reference (bellhousing bolt locations)
Cutting guide mounted on the ABH
Cutting guide mounted to the same location the ABZ
Once cutout, the secondary cutting guide was used to accomodate sensor geometry. The holes serve as a guide for a 5mm drill bit to tap to M6. The jig won't fit unless the work of the first jig is completed
The final jig takes up the negative space to expose any errors, also serves as a guide to straighten the M6x1.0 tap
Since the sensor block actually sits flat on the cutout surface, it'd probably be fine to leave as is, but I don't really like the gap on the lower bolt. The best solution would be to have someone weld to the block and fill that space. However, I opted to simply fill with JB-weld and used a helicoil for the threads, which run into the aluminum below. I drilled in various directions to give the JB a positive lock on the block.
It ain't pretty, but it works. I have no concern about the longevity of the JB since the helicoil threads are actually rooted in the aluminum.
Step 2) Accessory bracket clearancing
By luck, the bolt holes line up to mount the ABH accessories to the ABZ. However, there's some additional bracing that needs to go for it to fit. Basically, I just ground it down to match the ABH.
ABH:
ABZ:
Step 3: Motor mounts
The driver's side of the ABZ block has a boss identical location to the ABH. All you have to do is drill and tap the lower 2 of the 3 bolts to M10 and you're good to use the stock mounting bracket!
The ABZ passenger motor mount integrates the oil filter and cooler housing. 034 makes a block-off plate to use a remote filter setup, but that still leaves making a mount for the ABZ in a D11. I measured the location of the mount relative to the block using common geometry (the starter hole) to establish a coordinate plane.
I printed an equivalent prototype mount in order to test and make some small adjustments.
Printed prototype on engine - it mounts to 3 points on the ABZ block, designed to clear the starter, header and oil cooler lines, while placing the rubber mount in the same relative location as on the ABH. The shape is constrained to enable fabrication with flat pieces of 3/16" steel.
Good news! The ABZ doesn't make anywhere near the torque as shown in this simulation - and that's assuming all other mounts are bearing no load and that the material has reached its endurance limit. Although it doesn't account for the inertial impulse of a clutch dump launch, I think we can be reasonably sure it'll survive normal use.
Finally had it water-jet cut and welded (I will post the drawing later - remind me if I forget and you need it)
Note: if you're using an air/oil cooler, you'd need to plug up the coolant port used for the ABZ cooler. It takes a 19mm/3/4" freeze plug.
Step 4: Starter
The ABZ uses a D2 starter, and the ABH is unique to the D11. Fortunately, they share the same upper bolt, and the position of the actual body of the starter is identical relative to the block and bellhousing. Unfortunately, the lower bolt is moved outward on the D2, and there's a lot of material in the way preventing the use of the D11 starter on the ABZ. You can either whip out the die grinder and try and make room, or just use the D2 starter instead.
...which brings up a new issue. Using the D2 starter, the lower bolt hole lines up to the block, but the 016 does not have this hole. (The 01E, however, does). My solution for this was to tap the lower bolt hole to M16 and step down to an M12 stud. I then drilled and tapped the block for the transmission to mate to the block.
Painstakingly make an M16->M12 stud cause I had no fab ability.
I put a "philips" drive on the back in case I needed to hold the stud or to remove it. The hole to the left was drilled through the 016 bellhousing hole, and then tapped to M12.
Step 5: Cams
For intake, you can interchange any of the 32V variants (except 32V S8 due to lobe clearance unless you machine the heads). I elected for the ABZ due to the higher lift and duration.
Exhaust is more complicated. If you're not using ABH distributors - great! Use whatever cams you want. However, if you want a drop in ABH replacement like I did, your options are more limited. ABZ and ABH exhaust cams are almost completely identical profile - IIRC, same lift and and like 0.5 degrees difference in timing. The real difference is towards the back - the drive for the distributors and the drive for the ABZ cam sensors are different. I would not advise trying to accurately machine the ABZ cam to match, since the engine timing depends on it.
Instead, I just used the ABH exhaust cams, but BEWARE! The passenger cam needs to be turned down 1mm at the very back end. This is not a bearing surface, but it will interfere with the cam cap of the ABZ heads. This is very easy to miss, but they are different.
I redneck-machined it by setting the oiled cam in the old head with the lifters removed. I had a friend spin it with a drill while I took a grinding disc to the outer dimeter of the distributor drive. Be mindful to protect the cam from metal shavings.
Step 5: Oiling
You'll need to externalize the oil filter housing, since it's no longer integrated with the motor mount. I would strongly recommend an oil cooler as well, and with that, an oil thermostat. In total, I externalized the oil filter, cooler, thermostat, and created a sensor block to house the stock oil temp and pressure senders.
I recommend this layout, as it emulates the stock Audi layout. The temp and pressure senders are in the worst-case positions to catch issues early on:
Here you can see how I physically laid it out.
Thermostat housing with temp sensor
Oil filter housing mount to frame rail
Oil pressure sensor block
Step 6: Convert to ABH (Bolt ons)
Super minor, but you'll have to rearrange the exhaust studs to match the ABH or you won't be able to use the D11 exhaust manifolds.
In addition to what was previously mentioned, I installed ABH valve covers, valley pan cover (breather), intake manifold and fuel rail, and ignition system. If you wish to use the variable geometry ABZ intake, you'll have to use ABZ valley pan cover, figure out the throttle body and cable, and determine a way to control the intake actuator.
lorge1989 wrote:Ton of great work to just sell it. But we have all been there, too many things to do.
Haha it's the way it goes, isn't it? The original engine was trashed, and I could either sell the car for nothing, part it out, or make an effort to bring it back from the dead. I hadn't seen the ABZ adapted to ABH before, so I thought it might be an interesting challenge... definitely thought it'd be more bolt-in though.
pilihp2 wrote:I wonder, is it possible to throw a the ABZ internals/pistons and ABZ Heads onto an ABH Block so you don't have to do any custom machining?
Almost certainly! The easiest, really, would've been to slap the ABZ heads on the ABH block, but man, my old block was tired and now serves as a nice coffee table. Tbh, I shied away from messing with the internals since Audi deemed them "unrebuildable" and you can find 100 different opinions on how to work with the hypereutectic Al block. It's been done, but I didn't wanna roll those dice. In retrospect, it was way less bolt in than their semblance would suggest, but with the R&D I did now, I'm confident I could replicate my work in a day or two.
If I didn't already have the setup for VEMS, the Motronic 6-speed ECU, and the flywheel, I'd tend towards a full ABZ swap with 60-2, COP and all, and skip the sensor provision machining. You'd just need to mount a single VR sensor wherever your trigger wheel is.
That said... I'd do it again if I had to.
Kevin (Sven) - 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN - 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS - 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ - 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap - 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt - 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
I figured a positive displacement supercharger would be a good fit.
