Eric's '90 80QT: rustic bits

[elaw]

Heh... I have a whiz wheel and I know how to use it!

[DE80q]

Haha! I had to get very good with one to make this intercooler fit begins the bumper and almost look stock.

[elaw]

Well I had a brainstorm last night, and those that know me well know that's usually not a good thing!

But first things first, I got the bumper tweaked and reinstalled with surprisingly little drama. A little work with the cutting wheel in a few areas that aren't visible from outside the car and it now fits like the proverbial glove.

So then my attention turned to the issues with the condenser. A couple of posts back I mentioned the clearance issue with the switch/service port block which is on the outlet of the condenser. But the inlet fitting had issues too, which you can see in the photo in that post. So what to do?

I finally realized that "what to do" is to flip the condenser so the ports are on the opposite side - away from the engine. That fixes a lot of ills but brings a big new one into play - the condenser has mounting points only on its rear, and the "rear" is now facing away from the radiator! So extreme creativity would be required to attach it to the radiator.

Well, without further ado, I present "extreme creativity":


Here's a closer look at the bracket itself:

Yes, that is two machine screws with their heads welded to a piece of sheet metal! It's the only thing that would fit. There's only about 5/16" clearance between that fitting and the body of the condenser so extreme thinness is required. And you'd never be able to get a screwdriver in there if the screws were used the conventional way. So we have an ultra-thin bracket with homemade "studs" built-in!

Because of how it worked out geometrically and the fact I was able to reuse parts, I decided to do the same on the other side:


On top, I decided to go a slightly different way... here's the outboard side:


And the inboard:

The reason those brackets are sitting on stacks of washers is so when I mount the condenser in the car, onto the Nissens radiator (which doesn't have the outlet for the aux radiator in the way) without the washers it'll sit closer to the radiator. It's become apparent that this isn't going to work with the Behr radiator without some sort of major changes. One idea I'm considering is removing the headlight washer tank (the washers don't work anyway) and relocating the charcoal canister to that location, freeing up space to move the radiator around. The other idea I'm thinking of is removing the top tank from the Behr and fabricating a new one out of aluminum, without the offending outlet fitting.

Anyhow, as the result of all this, the condenser *does* fit. Clearance to the throttle cable is still very tight:

But I think a little work with the whiz wheel will get me enough room.

[elaw]

Well I haven't posted in the last few days... because I've been too busy working on the car! And good progress has been made. :-)

First, something quite unrelated to the A/C:

I think many of you will recognize that as a more rigid replacement for the "dog bone" thing in the 016 shift linkage, and there's a funny story behind that. I made it way back when I had the 4000, and when I pulled the engine+trans from the car I put it in "a safe place". Can you guess where I'm going with this? In spite of a ton of time spent searching, I was never able to locate it until it surfaced about a week ago in a ziploc bag of completely unrelated small parts. So since I was in there fooling with A/C bits, I decided to install it, and now have ultimate shift-linkage happiness.

And now back to your regularly-scheduled air conditioning saga...

I've gotten a ton of things done, most small but all important. I've been fabbing up little parts, getting things welded, and yesterday I ran about a gallon of acetone through the evaporator to clean it out. That's the only major component of the system that had R-12 in it, and I wanted to get the mineral oil out which I think this did. In the process I spilled a ton of acetone on the passenger's side inner CV joint boot... we'll see how that works out long term. :(

Anyhow, the first thing we have for show-and-tell tonight is the switch / service port block that goes on the condenser. I got it all installed, along with a little aluminum brace I made up:

And as you can see, the switches and 134a service port adapter are installed. A bonus is I *think* the wiring in the car's harness will reach this with no modifications.

Moving right along... we now have inlet and outlet pipes for the evaporator:

Both started out as Audi OE bits. The larger (outlet) one I cut off and had a hose barb welded on. The smaller one actually has been modified very little - bent a bit to clear the fuel lines, and to come out above, rather than below, the steering rack. At that one's far end it used to connect to another hardline that went to the OE condesner, now there will be a 90-degree hose barb fitting and hose going to a connection on the front of the new condenser.

And did I say "condenser"? Yes I did!

That thar is the new condenser fully installed and fitting... barely. It's hard to get a good photo of it, but there's about 1/2" of clearance between the throttle cable and one of the upper brackets:

And that's using just about everything in my "bag of tricks". I actually took the evap canister out, heated it with a heat gun, and dented the plastic in in a couple of places to make clearance to move the radiator back. As you can see the condenser brackets are strategically cut away. And that's with the Nissens radiator... no way it'll fit with the aux radiator outlet fitting on the Behr radiator. I'm toying with the idea of cutting that fitting off completely and trying to seal it from the inside, but for now the Nissens will have to do.

But it does fit, and even works okay with the hacked-to-death-to-work-with-the-AAN factory top baffle:

[elaw]

Well today I have a little progress report for you all, and for possibly the first time in history, I think I can tell the story with one picture!

Here's said picture:


The photo actually doesn't show it very well, but that's an A/C accumulator with condensation all over it. Would anyone care to guess why it has condensation all over it?

Because the A/C is working! :-) :-) :-)

There really isn't too much more to tell. Lots of cutting hose and clamping it onto fittings, attaching said fittings to various parts of the system, etc. etc. Oh and putting oil in it... I've heard that's important. :wink:

Then I hooked up the gauge set and the vacuum pump, pulled vacuum on it for about 15 minutes, then let it sit for half an hour. The vacuum didn't drop at all... no leaks!

So I fired the pump up again and vacuumed it for another 2-1/2 hours. During that time I installed the new belt that reaches the compressor, and jury-rigged the wire that feeds the clutch (I'm waiting on connectors for a permanent connection).

Then I fired the car up, hit the A/C button, and started stuffing 134a into it. Soon enough cold air started flowing, and the pressures look good. I'm in total guesstimate mode on the amount of refrigerant to put in, so I just judged by the pressures and kept it on the low side since it's a cool day. We're supposed to have some close-to-90 days coming up soon, and I'll recheck then and maybe put a little more juice in it (I only put in a can and a half).

But for now I'm just enjoying my working A/C system!

[ur20v]

Are those... Hose clamps? On hoses? In the ac system?

[pilihp2]

Are those... Hose clamps? On hoses? In the ac system?

....is that something you can even do?

Is that a thing???

[DE80q]

With the correct parts yes. I have seen this done many times on some of the old hot rods and rat rods I used to work on.

As lone as Eric is using a specific type of hose, barb fittings, and clamps he should have no problems. As he bought thus as a kit, he should be fine.

[elaw]

And even with incorrect parts!

This actually wasn't a kit, everything was bought "a la carte". Most of the fittings came from http://coldhose.com/ - they've got an amazing selection of that type of thing. Some of the hose I bought from them, but the reduced #12 hose for the suction side came from ebay (coldhose sells reduced fittings, but oddly doesn't seem to sell the hose).

And technically you're not supposed to use barbed fittings with barrier hose... but it just didn't make sense to me to spend $150+ on a hose crimper to do just this one job. So I did some research and it seems you can use barbed fittings if you do it just the right way. What it comes down to is you have to sand + polish the barbs so they have an extremely smooth finish for sealing, and no sharp edges that could nick the nylon lining in the hose.

The real irony in the above? I found out afterward that where I work we have a multi-thousand-dollar hydraulic hose crimper that I'm sure would have done the job just fine.

I'm also not using traditional "a/c hose clamps" as the slots in the band on those are open and the hose tends to extrude through them. So on the low side I'm using lined "constant tension" clamps that are nice to the hose, and for the high side I'm using t-bolt clamps that are not only nice to the hose but have very high clamping force.

The thing other than cost that motivated me to do things this way was my experience working on cars. I worked as a mechanic around 1980 when many cars on the road had hose-clamped systems from the factory (or sometimes added by the dealer), and again around 1993 when most had crimped hoses. During that time I probably replaced 50 hoses due to leaks where the fittings attach. *All* those replaced hoses had crimped ends... I never saw a clamped one leak! They burst a lot since the hose wasn't as good in those days but they rarely leaked.

[oil_me]

I admire the complexity of your solutions and the use of found resources. I was also working as a mechanic in 1980, lol, and I remember the simplicity and durability of fasteners before the "Cheapening". Keep up the good work.

[elaw]

I admire the complexity of your solutions and the use of found resources.

Hey thanks! Although I think the best word to describe most of the resources I use is "cheap".

Well today I'm going to do a little ranting and raving... in that order.

Have I ranted about the quality of Chinese parts this week? Well here I go... first, a picture:

When I got the A/C compressor the bearing for the clutch seemed a little loose so I replaced it. As soon as I fired the thing up, the bearing was noisy, and as you can see from the photo it was also leaking grease. The damn car didn't even leave the driveway! :x Failure after 0 miles... that's a first for me.

FWIW the brand of the bearing is "Santech"... I'm never buying from those guys again (the actual source of the part was ebay). Edit: although the ebay listing said I'd get a "Santech" bearing, the one I actually received was made by "Global Air" and doesn't match the photo in the ad. So I've sent a complaint message to the seller - we'll see what they have to say for themselves. The real challenge now is trying to figure out who (if anyone) makes a good bearing I can put in this thing!

For now I've put the original bearing back in - it's a little noisy but way better then the new one. Go figure.

Anyhow, on to more positive things! I'm too lazy to reread my own thread, but have I ever raved about the "Jegs tubing beader" before?


If you're doing custom turbo plumbing and don't have a tool like that, you've got to get one. It costs about $150 but enables you to do this:


When I moved the intercooler forward to clear the A/C compressor I needed a longer version of the pipe from the turbo outlet to the IC... I made the one in that photo in about 10 minutes. :-)

And lastly... if you're ever going to do an insane project like this and install the wrong A/C compressor on your car, get a variable-displacement one! This one is sweet. A variable-displacement compressor, instead of cycling on and off, varies its pumping rate to suit the system's need, based on low-side pressure. So basically it automatically maintains temperature over different cooling load and engine RPM.

One benefit of that is it can pump a lot of refrigerant when needed - like when you first turn the system on. When I push the "A/C" button in the car, the air coming from the vents is noticeably cooler in about 4 seconds, and is "cold" in under 10. It's freakin' amazing! And that's in spite of the compressor having a "soft start" function that loads the engine less when it's first engaged, meaning I don't have to do any tricks with the Megasquirt to stabilize the idle when the A/C is turned on. The same applies to the lack of cycling - there isn't a load suddenly being applied to the engine then removed, so the idle stays smooth and driveability is better.

[SeStone]

That's pretty gangster you used a variable displacement compressor. Does it require a special kind of controller to operate? Sorry if you covered that already.

Sam

[elaw]

Nope... the magic is all mechanical and inside the compressor. It's just got one wire for "on" like most others.

I think electronically-controlled ones exist, but this isn't one of them.

It isn't formatted very well, but I'm attaching a PDF from Saab's online service info system that explains how the compressor works.

[domas]

Eric, when I was shopping for a/c parts in USA both santech and global air were popular things to find, especially santech. I have actually purchased some santech parts, and they actually do sell something that others dont ;-] I would buy santech products again, not sure about global air

Re: alternatives for bearing, please supply me with compressor model number and manufacturer, but I would just contact those folks: http://centuryautoair.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=16

[elaw]

Hey thanks!

But I've found a better solution: after some negotiating with the accounting department (wife) I'm just going to buy a whole new compressor for the earth-shattering sum of $230.00. :-) Ironically, I could have spent twice that amount on a rebuilt!

Just for reference though, the compressor is a Denso 7SBU16C, which fits 1999-2005 Saab 9-5s.

[elaw]

So... is there a limit to the amount of cursing allowed on these forums? Because if I told how I truly felt about the door trim on this car, I'd surely reach the limit... :frustrated: :x

Remember a while back I wrote about the trim creating rust stains on the doors, and everyone said the solution was to remove the metal strips in the trim? Well I don't doubt that's the correct solution... actually from my research it appears to be the *only* solution, other than leaving the trim off.

The problem, at least on my car, is that "metal" is no longer the correct term to describe those strips:

What's in there has got to be at least 75% iron oxide. Iron oxide that is *really* well bonded to the rubber... or plastic, whatever it is.

The stuff is an absolute S.O.B. to remove. Never mind that it's completely embedded in the rubber so you have to do a bunch of cutting to even expose it. But then you've got to get it out of there somehow and the best method I've found so far is scraping/chiseling with a flat blade screwdriver followed by a lot of work with one of those rust-remover wheels that goes in a drill and an abrasive wheel in a Dremel tool. I've got about 6 hours of work (and 6 of the Dremel wheels) into just two trim strips and I'm not done yet. Ugh.

[elaw]

So I've made another step along the road to total A/C happiness: a brand-new compressor! I've never owned a brand new A/C compressor before! Yeah, go ahead, laugh... :-)

This is a Denso compressor made in Japan that I got for the not-very-princely sum of $230.00:

Not chump change, but considering that many euro car compressors have 4-digit prices, I ain't complainin'!

I was hoping to have this wrapped up by the weekend, but I had to order more oil to go with the compressor, and seem to have ordered it from an Amazon marketplace "we'll ship it by turtle express... eventually" seller. So it probably won't get installed until next week, at which time it'll probably be snowing.

[white200break]

coca cola might be your best friend with the rust.
I've tried to find some info on how it might affect rubber
but can't find anything.
I would think that it will affect rubber to but hopefully
at a slower rate that the rust.

Louis

[elaw]

Interesting idea... I think I may give that a try!

Actually I think the magic with Coke is it has phosphoric acid in it... I think some "rust remover" products have that too... I'm going to check.

Just a little update on the A/C: when I first charged/tried the system it worked great but it wasn't a very good test as it was only a bit over 70 degrees out and fairly dry. Well yesterday I installed the new compressor, evaced and recharged the system and tested it again. And yesterday, it was 86 degrees out and the dewpoint was 72! Not quite the most "summery" weather we get here but close. And the result? This is one honkin' A/C system! It worked beautifully - air blew cold very quickly, and after just a minute or two it was darn near blowing ice cubes. Eric "r" a happy camper! :-)

Moving right along... a question: does anyone know how to remove the headlight-washer reservoir? Would I have to remove the fender? The washers don't work on this car, and to make more clearance for the radiator, I'd actually like to see if I can remove the washer reservoir and install the evap canister in its place.

[oil_me]

Awesome work on the AC, congrats. I removed my washer system as well. It sits underneath the fender liner. The filler neck swivels around to help with extrication. GL

[ur20v]

My B6 A4 also has a "clutchless" variable displacement a/c compressor made by Denso.

And I hate to tell you this, but, you could've fit that compressor to your existing bracketry without any custom hassle. It has the same mounting points as all Audi compressors as far back as I have seen. However, the cost of a new one is closer to $400 rather than $250, so it may have been a wash in the end.

[elaw]

Doh!

I'd just got done writing a long babbling response about how the Saab compressor mounting is nothing like that of the Audi but then I realized you probably meant I could have installed a B6 A4 compressor and it would bolt right up?

Actually... what engine does your car have? I just did a little quick looking around on GAP and most of the B6 A4 compressors I see there (if I'm looking at the right thing) are like my Saab compressor in that they have 3 mounting points. The bracket on the AAN is for a compressor with 4 mounting points so there's no way one of those would bolt up.

[ur20v]

Its got the 1.8t... Funny thing, when the original compressor locked up, I replaced it with the new Denso. The original compressor had 3 mount holes while the replacement had 5. I'll see if I can find the invoice for the replacement compressor and get you a p/n.

[elaw]

Wow that's funky... all the Denso compressors I've looked at had 3 mounting holes. It would be interesting to see the one with 5.

The clutchless design is pretty clever too - I wasn't aware such a thing existed!

[elaw]

Okay, well, I'm back again for some advice.

The fabric lining on the underside of my sunroof is starting to suffer from what I'll call "detachment disorder". And I think it would be a lot easier to fix on a bench or table than above my head in the car.

I read through the instructions in the Bentley but they say something to the effect of "slide the panel to the rear", as if they're talking about a glass sunroof with a separate thing you slide forward when you don't want the sun on your head. Or are they referring to the inner panel of the sunroof? Can anyone tell me specifically how to remove that panel? If it matters, this is the tilt/slide sunroof with a crank to open & close it.

And for anyone who cares, I figured out how to get the headlight-washer reservoir out. First you pop the filler neck out - it's just held in by friction. Then you need to pull back the plastic fender liner a bit and you'll see the reservoir is held by two studs with (corroded) nuts on them - one up quite high, the other about 10" from the bottom of the tank. Remove those, remove the little "strut" that braces corner of the fender (one Phillips screw on each end), then pull the reservoir toward the rear to free the "pin" that holds it in the front, and it'll fall out. Well at least as far as the pump wiring and hose will let it - you of course need to disconnect those first. I did it with the bumper off and access was pretty good - I'm not sure if it's doable with the bumper still installed or not.

Oh and at least on some cars, the pump is fed from a power circuit with no fuse! So if you remove the tank and the (not very well insulated) connector were to hit some metal while energized, really bad stuff could happen. I dealt with it by wrapping the connector in electrical tape *and* removing the headlight washer relay from the fusebox.