Kevin's 200 20v

Document and share your build!
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themagellan
Posts: 873
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:36 am

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by themagellan »

Kevin!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is wonderful, and a huge congratulations! I hope you actually just enjoy the ever living hell out of the car while it's in this form, and can only look forward to the modifications in the future. I think it's really great how much you've learned, and achieved in such a short time. Your dad should be very proud that you kept the old friend in the family.

Mine's been sitting collecting dust, and I start it about once a month. I need to do very similar work to get mine to being as pristine as yours, and I can say that reading your last post is definitely some motivation to go sit in a hot driveway for hours on end to enjoy a few cool ones with the windows down.

:beer: (Soda)
Aktapod
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by Aktapod »

Thanks Mage!! You have no idea how much it means to me to hear that from you. You're probably not aware, but I actively tried to model the start of my thread after yours (I even stole the same opening!), because it just makes me happy to read yours every now and then. It sucks to have to deal with the downtime, but the joy you get when everything is running right is completely worth it.

I dunno where in NC you are, but if you're anywhere along the western side, you're just a stone's throw away. Give me a holler if you ever need another set of hands to git'er dun!
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN
- 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS
- 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ
- 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap
- 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt
- 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
Aktapod
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by Aktapod »

loxxrider wrote:Doesn't really seem like there is anything left to do for those rear seats! Just sit in them and go :) Looks sweet!

Haha, thanks! To be honest, you probably could. The seat bottom fits in and bolts straight up! Unfortunately, you have to first remove the 200 backing, as the UrS seats are ~3cm taller and won't fit with it installed.

Unfortunately, the UrS backing is not quite so drop in, because of several minor issues, but I've got an idea in mind to address them all. Hopefully it'll appear OEM to the uninitiated!
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN
- 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS
- 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ
- 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap
- 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt
- 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
Aktapod
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by Aktapod »

Also the award for the silliest modification I've done yet goes to... my new "cold air" intake!

Not because of any convoluted notion that it'll bring any power to the table, but simply because it sounds AWESOME, I slapped on a K&N cone filter I had lying around. Kind of juvenile? Yes. But I absolutely love the fuller tone of the engine, the whistle of the turbo, and that massive PSSHHHHHH that breaks necks whenever I shift.

Of course, "cold" air requires some kind of protection from the turbo's heat, which was initially taken care of by a sheet of polycarbonate, whose only material constraint was "Can I light this on fire?" Now that I've decided that this temporary filter setup will no longer be quite so temporary, I'm afraid I have to develop something a little more elegant, so that I don't have to keep checking over my shoulder before popping the hood.

Enter this awesome tool!
IR_0882.jpg
IR_0882.jpg (39.94 KiB) Viewed 47652 times


I asked my dad to grab a thermal camera from his office so I could use it to see the effect of changing some variables under the hood. I'm not going to bother with setting the correct emissivity for the different materials I look at, so take the quantitative values for what they are. I'm just going to look at them with the same E = 0.85 and get a rough before/after.

IR_0920.jpg
IR_0920.jpg (41.07 KiB) Viewed 47652 times

IR_0919.jpg
IR_0919.jpg (38.72 KiB) Viewed 47652 times

With the baseline taken care of, I'm going to try heat-wrapping the downpipe and building a new heat shield with twin sheet metal layers and a layer of air between them as the main insulator. The top and bottom will be lined with rubber strips like the one that seals the firewall to the hood, and I'll cover the hotside face with a reflective foil. I think that should be effective.
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN
- 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS
- 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ
- 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap
- 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt
- 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
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loxxrider
Posts: 6642
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:46 am
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by loxxrider »

Ha this is awesome. Gotta love the way an engineer does things.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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PRY4SNO
Posts: 2430
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:14 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by PRY4SNO »

I like where this is going!
Find me on Instagram @pry4sno

|| 2010 Golf Sportwagen TDI /// #farmenwagen
|| 2002 Dodge Ram 2500 24vt 4x4 #bertancummins
|| 1992 80 quattro 20v /// Eventual AAN'd Winter Sled
|| 1990 Coupe quattro /// Because Racecar
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88a5tq
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Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by 88a5tq »

Kevin you're an engineer in training? That's pretty cool. I have my degree but I'm a janitor instead lol. Wrap your mind around that :D Thing is, you retain that way of thinking and going about projects. I'm better for it now... enjoying it all ya know? It's fun! I REALLY am interested to see your finding with the upcoming intake mods! I'm tuned in ;)

I wish I'd gone about my underhood mods the same way so I could see where benefits could be gained. Keep going man!
1991 Audi 200q Holset
1991 Audi 200q Felbaum'd
1988 Audi 5000 TQ
Aktapod
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by Aktapod »

Haha, well, the final outcome is probably the same as without the thermal camera, but it's still fun to see!

Unfortunately, that project is on hold for now, because I recently decided I'll be driving to Colorado before school starts. However, to meet that timeline, there were a LOT of projects to finish up in the two weeks before my departure.

- 7A intake cam and VC leak fixed (Thanks Taylor for the help!)
- New fabric on the rear deck
- Successfully made rear seat bracket
- Tie rods, refinished new wheels, new tires, alignment

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I made it to Boulder yesterday without a hitch! The car feels soooo much better both handling and in a straight line now.

Interestingly, the intake cam actually had a pretty noticeable effect on the powerband. A bit less on the bottom end, but the it gives a solid kick in the pants around 3-4k RPM before the boost tapers off.
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN
- 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS
- 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ
- 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap
- 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt
- 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
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loxxrider
Posts: 6642
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:46 am
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by loxxrider »

Nice progress!

So is the rear seat finished or no?

Little touches like the re-covered rear deck make a big difference. How did you refinish the wheels? Just filler and paint?
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
Aktapod
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by Aktapod »

Haha, the wheels took an absolutely ridiculous amount of work.

I filled with JB Weld and spent countless hours sanding and reshaping them. After several disappointing rattle-can attempts, I went to a paint shop and had them mix up the original Avus Silver (but I cheaped out, so it looks a little metal flakey). I primed and wet-sanded, then took them to a guy with a paint setup, who kindly taught me how to spray them! They're not perfect, but they're not permanent, either. Just gotta clear some S4 brakes!

As for the rear seats, they are functionally installed! Aesthetically, there's still a bit to do, including the headrests. If there's interest, I can make a full write up on what's required to fit them when I get it all sorted.
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN
- 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS
- 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ
- 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap
- 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt
- 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
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loxxrider
Posts: 6642
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:46 am
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by loxxrider »

Nice, I've used JB weld as filler (on the body of my 635csi). It's a lot more difficult to work with than other things, but it really holds well and gets hard as a rock. Not a bad choice there. I think the only reason people don't use it more as filler is because it's expensive and hard to work with. It does an excellent job when you get it right though!
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
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88a5tq
Posts: 1553
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:27 pm

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by 88a5tq »

Wow I'm really enjoying watching the transformation of your 200 Kevin! :) great job so far.

I really wish there was a way to compare two 200's side by side with one having both 7a cams and the other with only the intake. I'm hearing you went the correct route using only the hottest cam from each platform. I of course used 7a cams both. Not complaining by any means lol!
1991 Audi 200q Holset
1991 Audi 200q Felbaum'd
1988 Audi 5000 TQ
Aktapod
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by Aktapod »

Thanks man! I'm actually running both 7A cams now. I embarrassingly snapped a lobe off another one back in November, so I ran just the 7A exhaust + stock intake until I tracked down another.

Despite what I've heard about the exhaust cam making the biggest difference, I felt the opposite. I suspect that's because I'm on stock (chipped) ECU and stock turbo. The turbo is too restrictive to take advantage of the top end exhaust flow, but the ECU can adapt to the higher mass of air pulled in via the MAF. Or I'm just making things up. Dyno day to come soon, though, to see where things are. :)
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN
- 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS
- 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ
- 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap
- 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt
- 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
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88a5tq
Posts: 1553
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:27 pm

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by 88a5tq »

Oh come now! If you ever decide you'd rather blow $2800 on w/m injection, vems, and the available COP kit, you'll be able to extract more power from that measly k24 at 27 psi than you ever imagined!! Gee willakers that turbo was fun lol. Maybe I'll put it in the 5k :twisted:
Hugely entertaining combination when coupled with the 7a cams hah
1991 Audi 200q Holset
1991 Audi 200q Felbaum'd
1988 Audi 5000 TQ
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loxxrider
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Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by loxxrider »

Don't forget bigger fuel injectors. The k24 really is fun when it isn't limited by the stock injectors... In cold weather, I couldn't believe how fast that little sucker felt when unlimited on VEMS. Chips suck!
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
User avatar
88a5tq
Posts: 1553
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:27 pm

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by 88a5tq »

Ya you're right Chris. I forgot I was running the rs2's and 4 bar FPR as well :)

All these people on the road buying new cars to get their kicks. I own the only cars already that I could ever want lol. Love these rigs
1991 Audi 200q Holset
1991 Audi 200q Felbaum'd
1988 Audi 5000 TQ
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loxxrider
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Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by loxxrider »

I totally agree, except that I have a need for a lot of variety in my life. The Audi is what I've been with for the longest though! I think it's the best overall car in terms of practicality, build quality, and fun ever made... no joke. Especially the avant :)
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
Aktapod
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by Aktapod »

Haha, you're right; I should have worded that better: The heavy boost taper is holding back the full potential of the cams' top end!

loxxrider wrote:I totally agree, except that I have a need for a lot of variety in my life. The Audi is what I've been with for the longest though! I think it's the best overall car in terms of practicality, build quality, and fun ever made... no joke. Especially the avant :)

I love these cars! It's hard to view it objectively, since I'm certainly biased, but I find that, although it's not the best at any one thing, it is the best balance of practicality, reliability(ish), power and character of anything out there - and all while dressed in sheep's clothing.

Not that I don't yearn for the day I can add an E30 anything and an E34 M5 to the garage. :D

Unrelated question: Should I make a run up Pikes Peak, given the chance?
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN
- 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS
- 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ
- 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap
- 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt
- 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
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loxxrider
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:46 am
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by loxxrider »

Is that a rhetorical question?
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
User avatar
loxxrider
Posts: 6642
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:46 am
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by loxxrider »

Set your sights on something like that e30ix with s54 on bat right now... So awesome.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
Aktapod
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by Aktapod »

loxxrider wrote:Is that a rhetorical question?

Nope! It was actually a bit of a tossup, since it was about 2 hours just to get to the start of the climb. I did end up going, though!

Let me say this: Unless you can plan for a time with light traffic, don't go solely for the drive. You will get stuck behind a mom in her Suburban who's never heard of a pullout, and you will be forced to dip the clutch in first gear, because their pace is slower than the stall speed. However, the view is absolutely incredible and well worth the trip. Plus, your thoughtful pace car will give you plenty of time to take pictures on the way up.

When/if they do get out of the way, though, it's a whole new ball game! You mash what remains of your pedal to the metal, and a slight nudge in the back signifies the onset of that ferocious high-altitude torque, before the turbo finally comes online and rockets you behind the vestiges of the Sport Quattro. :drive: Repeat as necessary.

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Unfortunately, a fog quickly rolled over after I summited, diminishing any prospect of taking epic shots of the 200 above the clouds, but since the majority of the landscape was covered, I turned my eye to the car by itself and pretended to be a photographer. The sandy, Martian ground and the lighting from an oncoming storm made for some interesting shots, of which I'll spare you the majority.

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On my way down, I noticed that no car had passed in the other direction, so I flipped around and had some unrestricted fun, before the weather took a turn for the worse and I was finally forced to make my way home.

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Anyways, the car flawlessly made the 3200 mile trip to CO and back again - not even a drop of oil missing!

Well, I lied. Or rather, a problem I've had for several years is finally becoming identifiable. I dunno if it's the new wheels, tires, or alignment that bring it out, but I can finally trace the source of the humming from the rear axle. It gets higher in frequency as speed increases, and, for the first time, it becomes louder on a right turn and nearly disappears on a left, which leads me to suspect a failing driver's side wheel bearing.

Additionally, there's a very odd new handling aspect, which I'm convinced is related. I'm very accustomed to the body roll about the axis that spans the length of the car, but higher-speed right turns are now accompanied by a very disconcerting feeling, as if the body rotates about the vertical axis shortly thereafter (without losing traction). The tail just feels like it steps out a bit, and it's that unpredictability that has had me taking right turns very cautiously.

I'm not really planning on having the hub fall off quite yet, so I've decided to address this immediately. Does this sound like a correct diagnosis? I've also had a clunk going over quick bumps at the same corner since the dawn of time, but that may be unrelated. I was planning on changing all four bearings when I do the suspension overhaul, but I suppose now is as good a time as any.
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN
- 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS
- 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ
- 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap
- 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt
- 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
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loxxrider
Posts: 6642
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:46 am
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by loxxrider »

Sounds right to me. I've diagnosed many a bad wheel bearing and they sound exactly like what you describe.
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
Aktapod
Posts: 443
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:51 pm
Location: Denver, CO

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by Aktapod »

Thank you so much for the input, Chris! I'll get the parts on order and tackle that some weekend.

This has gotten me thinking about suspension (more). I know I've probably said this before, but it's time to start assembling parts for the overhaul. It's likely too optimistic to aim for this winter, seeing as I'm in school and have no income at the moment, but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility if I can get a job on campus.

I'm still very divided on coilovers vs H&R/Koni combo, and the main reason is that I simply have no point of reference to compare to. I'd like a setup that still cruises comfortably on the interstate and can take the occasional pothole/speedbump/road construction without breaking the car, but firm enough to reel in the body roll and handle better. If it had the same stiffness (or maybe slightly more) as a stock B5 S4, I think I would be content.

In the meantime, though, I'm going to start collecting everything that's not related to the spring/damper combo. I'll update this list as I research more, if at least for my own reference
- HPR poly rear subframe bushings (group buy acquired)
- HPR 70a motor and tranny mounts (link)
- HPR 70a rear diff mount (link)
- Apikol rear sway bar (info)(link)
- Front wheel bearings (2) (4A0498625)
- Rear wheel bearings (2) (443407625E)
- Front poly subframe bushings (source? awaiting HPR group buy)
- Front tie rods (2) (already done) (443419801E & 443419802E)
- Rear tie rods (2) (443505351P & 443505352P)
- Fabricate strut brace?
- Outer sway bar/Control arm bushings (4) (431407181F)
- Front inner control arm bushing (2) (431407183A)
- Inner sway bar bushings (2) (447411327B)
- Rear lower control arm bushings (2) (4D0511523C)
- Rear lower outer control arm bushings (4) (443505171F)
Kevin (Sven)
- 1991 200 20vt K24-7400 AAN
- 1991 200 20vt Avant K24-7400 VEMS
- 1992 Audi V8 5-speed swap + ABZ
- 2002 Audi S8 6-speed swap
- 1979 Audi Fox quattro 20vt
- 2003 RS6 6mt Stage 2
User avatar
loxxrider
Posts: 6642
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:46 am
Location: Jupiter, FL / Somewhere, PA

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by loxxrider »

By the way, I'm glad you made the decision to go to Pike's Peak. Too bad you couldn't get pictures in front of the clouds. That would have been epic! Still, the pictures you did get are pretty nice. Glad the car made it all the way out there and back too. Being able to have that kind of confidence in the car is very satisfying!

On the suspension, I have H&R and Koni in my Avant and coils on my sedan of course. In my opinion, the H&R on the avant are too soft. I drive 25k miles a year on crappy north eastern highways these days and I still think they're too soft. If you do coils, you can choose your spring rate. It doesn't have to be super stiff! You may want to hold off for a bit because I plan to do coils on my avant and have some 375 lb springs laying around which I want to try out in the front end of that car. I think it'll make for a really nice mix between highway comfort and mild handling upgrade (still major upgrade from stock!). If I were you, I'd start gathering parts for coils and then just hold off on the spring choice until you can get some seat time or other experience. Having a reference point (comparing to B5 S4) is a good thing. I haven't really ridden in a stock B5 S4, but I am fairly certain it'd be stiffer than an H&R/Koni 200 20v.

I love the parts list. I think we should make a separate thread dedicated to complete t44 suspension overhaul where we could list all of the bushings, etc. with part numbers and link to any DIYs and more. What about front subframe bushings?
-Chris

'91 Audi 200 20v - Revver/BAT project
'91 Audi 200 20v Avant
'01 Anthracite M5
'90 M3
'85 Euro 635csi
'12 X3
E34 530i (maybe rear-mount soon)
uberaudi
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:14 am
Location: MT

Re: Kevin's 200 20v

Post by uberaudi »

I agree with Chris, coilovers all the way! I put 300# on the front with 350# for the rear of my Avant paired with Bilstein sports and it seems to be a nice compromise between comfort and performance (for me anyways). Body roll is surprisingly minimal for such a large wagon but it also cruises down the road nicely without worry. It's like a performance exhaust that doesn't drone!
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