The Epitome of BMW Goodness

[loxxrider]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=312&v=rVkY8oA3RlE[/youtube]

[88a5tq]

Awesome car! Motor Trend did a track day and review of the m1 last month IIRC. Gave that issue to my brother since hes the BMW fanatic of the family with his e46 m3

[Noisy Cricket]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWRdqabMIEM[/youtube]

What is wild is, if you're familiar with Isle of Man rally footage, he is HAULING ASS. Covering ground way faster than even the Group B cars from two years earlier.

[loxxrider]

Damn! That was badass too. Doesn't sound anywhere near as good as the M88/S38 does, but that is one hell of an engine in racing form. It's incredible how much power BMW was getting out of those things naturally aspirated.

[loxxrider]

Awesome car! Motor Trend did a track day and review of the m1 last month IIRC. Gave that issue to my brother since hes the BMW fanatic of the family with his e46 m3

The E46 M3 is the perfect car to fall into love with BMW over.

[Justin517]

Awesome car! Motor Trend did a track day and review of the m1 last month IIRC. Gave that issue to my brother since hes the BMW fanatic of the family with his e46 m3

The E46 M3 is the perfect car to fall into love with BMW over.

Yup. IMO the E46/E38/E38 were the last of the Great BMWs. The E60 and E90 M engines were spectacular but they were pretty porky, sorta ugly, and low on torque given the curb weights. I know I can have a much faster car much more easily if I got a 335 or 535 but there's just something about the E39.


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[loxxrider]

Well, I have high hopes for the coming generation of M cars. BMW has the largest carbon fiber factory in the world now, so... it's only a matter of time until things get lighter!

[Justin517]

That is very true, and they're looking cool too.


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[Noisy Cricket]

Well, I have high hopes for the coming generation of M cars. BMW has the largest carbon fiber factory in the world now, so... it's only a matter of time until things get lighter!

I don't, because the Ms have to be based on production cars and BMWs have been getting crappier and crappier.

I guess it isn't all that bad. The E46 made the E36 look good in comparison, and the E90 is such a raging pile of crap that it makes the E46 look awesome. So with each successive Ultimate Parking Machine, the number of adequately acceptable previous generations goes up, because BMW proves that it could in fact get worse.

Be nice to get an E30, but, well... http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale ... 1635&Log=0

Yeah, not gonna happen. I could buy eight-ten E46s for that and treat them like the Bic disposable pens that they are.

[loxxrider]

Ha! That price is insane and not representative of the actual market. There are still plenty of $30k E30 M3s out there, and some good drivers just under that mark.

It's true that BMWs have been sucking lately, but not any more than Audis and Mercs have been from a driving dynamics standpoint. The problem with BMW is the leadership. The problem with Audi and Merc is the philosophy. For that reason, and because of CF, I still have some hope. Unfortunately it looks like the new M2 which is supposed to sooth those longing for oldschool driving dynamics is a bit watered down and heavy. I think the power it has would be just fine if only the engine was motorsports derived and the whole package was lighter. For a new car though, I think they'll be hard to beat.

As far as new M3's consider them to actually be M5s. M5s are the new M7s. M2 is the new M3. A sub 3k lb M2 in 2020 is, I think, a possibility. That has the potential to lure the enthusiasts back in.

I agree, it's frustrating what cars in general have turned into, but those are the cards we've been dealt. That's why the E30 M3 and others are and will continue to be valuable. E39 M5s are already on the up too believe it or not, and the E46 is next in line (for some very mild appreciation at first).

[Noisy Cricket]

The E30 is perfect... small stiff chassis, simple suspension that has minimal compliance and minimal unsprung mass, and with all of that simple you don't need more than a simple engine like a large four that can breathe well. After that, things got to be worse and worse with German over-analyzing and over-engineering.

Of course, you don't make money selling to enthusiasts. Mazda sells to enthusiasts, that is why they are always in dire financial straits until they hit the random home run of a car that the Masses buy in bulk enough to pay for everything else. And all of Mazda's cars are really Fords or Volvos except for the enthusiasts' model. (Always thought it was funny that the Ford "Explorer" was rebadged as a Mazda "Navajo"... thaty isn't very subtle is it?)

BMW doesn't sell to enthusiasts, they sell to poser enthusiasts who claim to want high performance but mainly they want a cool badge on a car. If you told me most BMWs today were trucks then i'd believe it. Seems like every BMW *car* I see is AWD and turbo, which may be politically incorrect to post here but AWD is not a very good enthusiast platform and turbo engines, at least the modern rendition, are not performance engines but rather a way to get a smaller engine to feel like a large one, all low end and mid range torque but not very inspiring.

(BTW - I currently have a Volvo. It has a turbo. It makes a decent amount of power from 2000-4000rpm and there's no turbo lag, but beyond that, it's the polar opposite of what one would think if you said "2 liter DOHC turbo". Which is fine, in the context of the whole car, which is not a performance car but a moderately luxury economy car)

I mean, hell, the outgoing M3 was beaten in most categories by the Mustang GT, and by "most" I mean it only lost in the poser d-bag factor. All it has to show for it are the nameplate and... remarkably uncomfortable seats? Greater amounts of "road isolation" (video game syndrome)? Engine sound? (HA trick answer! BMW and Ford both have faked engine sound)

[loxxrider]

Do yourself a favor and go drive a 135 or 135 is. You will regain your hope for BMW.

[Noisy Cricket]

Why? It weighs more than my Volvo, has less interior room, has super wide tires so therefore it has shitty steering, and it probably has the same boring bland low redline as the truck engine in my Volvo.

I don't care if it makes 300hp at 6000. What does it sound like at 8500-9000rpm. That is what gets my blood up. That's why I want an E46 M3, rod bearings as maintenance item notwithstanding. Heck, that is what I like about Audi fives (specifically the species as implemented in the S1 which has DAT HOWL)

I take my RX-7 past 10 on the occasions when the drivetrain isn't broken. It sounds good up there. It feels good up there. Touching the throttle makes the tach jump by scores of degrees when shifting. That's a fun engine.

[Justin517]

The E46 made the E36 look good? In what ways? I don't think the E36 is very aesthetically pleasing and the E36 M was a massaged M52, not even an M engine (here in the U.S.). The E46 looks leaps and bounds better and got a real Motorsports engine.

I miss ITBs and 9k redlines too but I'll take over 100 extra ft/lbs everywhere I use it 90% of the time. I drive my BMW to work, I take it to the strip/track maybe 1-2 times a year like most owners. That's also the reason I bought a 540i rather than an M5 (other than mine being a rare 1 year only Mtech 6 speed) I couldn't justify spending an extra 5-7k for a same mile/year/condition M5 for that extra 30-40whp, SAI issues, vanos issues, and bearing issues, not to mention higher insurance and maintenance costs. Especially when I can supercharge my 540 and make more power/torque.

Overall I agree, BMW has become mostly a poseur "transportation" provider. There are a few cool things in the pipeline but I won't be buying any BMWs newer than the E39 and E46 I currently own. I'll def own something with a 4.0T in it ... S7 please.


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[Noisy Cricket]

Realistically you can't use more than about 50-60hp on the road without risking losing your car/license for "street racing". So saying an engine is better on the street is meaningless because a 1.6l would still be too much low end to use on the street.

The E46 has the nice engine but a way crappier chassis. Much heavier and it has the big ugly flared fenders and huge wheels. Blah. Not a problem for people who aren't concerned with motorsports but if I want a car that is nice when stock then I want a car that is practical when stock. That means 1995 E36 because that had the sanest wheel size and the E36s didn't have much in the way of M-specific anything.

[Justin517]

I agree with the power on the street part. I spend probably 80% of my time between 1500 and 2500rpm which is 60-130hp, but is also 220-290ft/lbs, which is why I have a V8..

The E46 gained 260lbs and 93 horsepower (7.5% and 40% respectively) and it also gained chassis rigidity. I'll take the power and that "fat friend" riding along. As far as the 18" wheels, they look right in the arches IMO, yes a 17 would perform a bit better but I'm pretty sure that's one of the reasons we have lug bolts and an endless array of aftermarket wheels.


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[loxxrider]

I mean, hell, the outgoing M3 was beaten in most categories by the Mustang GT, and by "most" I mean it only lost in the poser d-bag factor. All it has to show for it are the nameplate and... remarkably uncomfortable seats? Greater amounts of "road isolation" (video game syndrome)? Engine sound? (HA trick answer! BMW and Ford both have faked engine sound)

The previous generation M3 did not have any sound emulation. It remains one of the best sounding production engines on the face of the earth. If the car wasn't as fat, it'd be a hell of a car. Lots of people like to compare mustangs to M3s for some reason, but they are only comparable on paper in my opinion. Nothing about the ford elicits the driver-centric experience the BMW does.

Why? It weighs more than my Volvo, has less interior room, has super wide tires so therefore it has shitty steering, and it probably has the same boring bland low redline as the truck engine in my Volvo.

I don't care if it makes 300hp at 6000. What does it sound like at 8500-9000rpm. That is what gets my blood up. That's why I want an E46 M3, rod bearings as maintenance item notwithstanding. Heck, that is what I like about Audi fives (specifically the species as implemented in the S1 which has DAT HOWL)

I take my RX-7 past 10 on the occasions when the drivetrain isn't broken. It sounds good up there. It feels good up there. Touching the throttle makes the tach jump by scores of degrees when shifting. That's a fun engine.

Um, since when are 205s wide? And even with M-sport the fronts were only 215 and rear 245. Also, how is that a bad thing? Yeah, the redline isn't 8500, but it's a torque monster and sounds wonderful at all RPMs. I love high RPM race-bred engines too, but I'll be damned if I don't love the M30 tractor engine in my 635csi just as much as I love the E30's S14.

Realistically you can't use more than about 50-60hp on the road without risking losing your car/license for "street racing". So saying an engine is better on the street is meaningless because a 1.6l would still be too much low end to use on the street.

The E46 has the nice engine but a way crappier chassis. Much heavier and it has the big ugly flared fenders and huge wheels. Blah. Not a problem for people who aren't concerned with motorsports but if I want a car that is nice when stock then I want a car that is practical when stock. That means 1995 E36 because that had the sanest wheel size and the E36s didn't have much in the way of M-specific anything.

How do you figure that? Power is relative by the way. You might only use 50-60 hp in a sub 2900 lb car, but in my Cayenne I'm able to use all 620 hp and 6xx lb-ft of torque on a daily basis. Same goes for my M5. I can use all 395 hp and all the torque it makes as well on the street without worry for being arrested. Not all the time of course, but there are several times and places during the day where I find it appropriate to do so.

On that note, I'd like to say torque is what makes a car truly fun on the street because you don't have to get up to ridiculous speeds to use it. That's why so many people love the N54 and N55 engines and why they love the E39 M5 as well.

The E46 is by no means a bad chassis. It's nearly universally praised! You just sound bitter that you don't have one at this point. How many BMWs have you owned or even driven? PLEASE go drive a 135 or E46 M3 and tell me that you can keep yourself from putting a huge stupid grin on your face while driving it at the limit! It's not possible.

BMW has lost it's way to me in some ways, but they still make some great vehicles. After all, BMW was not always about motorsport. They just made great sporting sedans, and guess what?? That's exactly what they continue to do! ///M is a relatively new thing for BMW and represents motorsport and technology. I will be very upset when they don't offer a manual transmission anymore, and that will mark the last new BMW I'll ever buy for myself, but until then they are still the greatest German brand of the past and current in my opinion, for more reasons than one.

The first time I ever drove a 135, I came back from the drive telling everyone that this car is the modern E30. It really is. Go see for yourself. Maybe you'll never get it, I don't know. I hope you're at least informed on how the cars are to drive, own, and work on first hand if you're going to bash them so much.

I feel sorry for you if you go buy a newer Audi outside of warranty. If anything, BMW has kept things much simpler and better engineered than VAG has over the last few decades.

[alxdgr8]

I feel sorry for you if you go buy a newer Audi outside of warranty. If anything, BMW has kept things much simpler and better engineered than VAG has over the last few decades.

Meh, every new luxury car regardless of brand is going to be a nightmare outside of warranty, at least in the last decade and current one. BMW has had their share of problems too, I don't think it's more or less. It's not the brand's fault either, it's the consumers and government that are driving complexity, which every brand has to offer if they want to compete and survive.
Car & Driver in their 328d long term review encouraged consumers to avoid current BMW's out of warranty.
Not many manufacturers have a TSB to change the battery with every oil change (http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture ... mw-n63-v8/)
On the diesel side, BMW has been having the same problems VAG has had with injectors/HPFP/etc.

Good thing we still love all these old cars! New cars are only going to get more expensive/complicated/numb as the years go by. I just hope I don't see the day where I'm not allowed to drive a car anymore and autonomy takes over.

[loxxrider]

Alex,

Having owned (and still own) on more than one BMW from the past decade and the current one, I honestly do think they keep things more simple and easy to maintain when things do break. It's not complexity that is the issue. It's engineering for maintainability that Audi/VW struggle with so much in my opinion. For me, spending time beneath the hood of a BMW is much more enjoyable than with almost any VAG product of the last two decades.

[Justin517]

I have yet to have to recode a module when replacing a battery on a VAG car. The cooling system on the N54 was asinine and a bitch to work on. The twin turbo V8s eat turbos, the 328d sounds like a tractor, a loud tractor. And their turbo 4 cylinder is def behind the latest similar VAG engines.

We did suspension on a new 640i GranCoupe today... Most the panels were plastic, it sounded like garbage and the leather that covered everything was cheap.

I'm going to have to disagree that BMW has kept it simple compared to VAG.


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