Chris' 200 20v Sedan - The Revver

[85oceanic]

Need moar update!

^^^^ TRUTH!

[loxxrider]

ARG! I just wrote a lengthy response and it didn't go through :(

You are right, it is time for an update. Sadly, I don't have much to give in terms of the car. I've been super busy between getting accustomed to the new job and also moving to a new house. This project has been a little held up for various reasons. However, we're on the verge of some breakthroughs.

As I've mentioned before, one reason is the crank vibration damper. It has been confirmed that the engine will make use of the ATI damper now, but there are still some bugs to be worked out with getting that setup to work with my ProSpeed dry sump setup (which I think offers superior packaging).

The other thing holding this up a little has been the head components. Jeff Gerner has the head now and is ready to start working on it, but we ran into some trouble with valve springs and related components. Supertech essentially told us that it would be near impossible to rev higher than 9500 without some seriously expensive modifications and components involved. I was almost ready to settle for that number, but it has recently come to light that Ferrea has a solution for this engine though... they are comfortable with up to 10,500 RPM with their very specific setup ("their entire assembly of valves, springs, spring seats, ti retainers and valve locks"). With this solution cemented in place, I think work can begin on the head very soon (these things all dictate cam profile, valve lift, and sizing of various components and flow paths).

Sorry I can't really provide much else for an update. Jeff should have some nice pictures to look at when the head work gets moving. Looking forward, this engine is going to need everything thrown at it that we can in order to keep the crank where it is supposed to be. Main girdle, and billet mains are next on the list for the engine itself.

In the meantime, I've been happy with the lower cash flows I've been seeing as a result of the lull in the action

[Toph]

This is going to be insane.

[themagellan]

ARG! I just wrote a lengthy response and it didn't go through :(

In the meantime, I've been happy with the lower cash flows I've been seeing as a result of the lull in the action

Agreed on both brother - can't wait to hear 10.5k Rpm in person

[loxxrider]

The t44 mafia grows stronger by the day

[2.5TYPE44]

need more updates. Jeff working on the head? Do you think it might be ready for Battle Born Quattro in October?

[loxxrider]

need more updates. Jeff working on the head? Do you think it might be ready for Battle Born Quattro in October?

I am hoping for Carlisle 2014... :/

I was thinking of going to BBQ, but I made it to Carlisle this year instead, so I'm going to have to skip in order to keep finances (and paid time off) in check!

I don't think the head work has been started yet just because plans with Ferrea, etc. are still being finalized.

[loxxrider]

UPDATE!!!!!!!!

From Jeff:

"Chamber starting point:



Damage on one intake port:



after being cleaned (not repaired yet)... never seen one like this:



Stock exhaust port:



Exhaust port, stock starting point:



An exhaust port during rough in with hi hellix cutter:



Finished Ex. Ports. Head upside down in shot:



Finished Ex. Port Port roof at bottom / floor at top:



A different port same shot:



Port floor with back lighting:



Another port floor different lighting:



Short radius turn to port floor:



Differnt shot - valve pocket blend to short radius:



Next step is to remove these seats.




I will be machining out the old seats next to make way for the oversize seat that will allow us to install 29.5 mm Ex. Valves in place of the stock 28mm.

Then the back side of the valve pocket will be addressed when I blend in the new oversize seats with the head."

Looks shiny! I think the damage on the intake side must be from shipping... I never saw that when I had it off last year. Nothing that can't be fixed!

[my2000apb]

sweeet

[2.5TYPE44]

It was about time for an update...

[EDIGREG]

nice!!

[PRY4SNO]

Some beautiful port work going on there

One question though Chris, regarding valve size.

Your intention is to rev to the moon on this build and you've chosen 1.5mm oversize valves. At what point does the increased mass of oversized valves impede overall flow at heightened rpm? JP on S2F was talking about staying within +0.5mm for most builds (especially to emphasize mid-range) and stock size for high rpm builds to keep the recip. mass down and optimum air pressure:flow.

I ask because I'm sure there's maths out there to prove it one way or another, but I'm lost where to begin

[2.5TYPE44]

Or you can go big like Hap McGuire and run titanium valves and rods. You won't have to worry about reciprocating mass then.

[loxxrider]

Some beautiful port work going on there

One question though Chris, regarding valve size.

Your intention is to rev to the moon on this build and you've chosen 1.5mm oversize valves. At what point does the increased mass of oversized valves impede overall flow at heightened rpm? JP on S2F was talking about staying within +0.5mm for most builds (especially to emphasize mid-range) and stock size for high rpm builds to keep the recip. mass down and optimum air pressure:flow.

I ask because I'm sure there's maths out there to prove it one way or another, but I'm lost where to begin

To be honest with you, I'm putting my trust in Jeff and Ferrea to figure this out because I just don't feel like I have the experience or time to dedicate to figuring it out on my own! My gut instinct though is that as long as you pick the springs correctly, things should stay in check... however, that puts a lot more stress on the seats and valves. I think that is just something that falls out of our head designs while going for huge power/revs though. You simply need the flow that the bigger valve affords.

At the projected power level here, you really have to keep velocity down in the ports (as Jeff has also mentioned recently) to keep (Re) down (keep turbulence to a minimum). I guess that is the theory here. This head will use their entire assembly of valves, springs, spring seats, ti retainers and valve locks. Everything was modeled in some program they have to get to 10,500 RPM (but no more). Only made from the good USA-sourced metal (PACALOY) and made domestically too of course.

[loxxrider]

More shiny...

From Mr. Gerner:

Development head for Chris' Hi RPM Motor

(this is a picture of the finished product for a 32.5mm valve I believe... more work to come for the 34mm )



Chris Head port 2 at FRP



Chris Development head 4 angle valve seat. -FRP

"...basically a fully developed 32.5 mm valve port at this point..."



Shot ofPort floor blend to seat at outer wall - radius



An earlier version from intake flange side.



Another shot the way the air sees things.

"...I have this maxed out with the 32.5 mm valves. Next I will change these seats out and install the 34mm I.V.’s that will be in your head and more development will follow.

I am trying to improve even beyond what I have on the Bonneville car. That head has literally hundreds of hours of carefully evolved improvements / testing.

I am trying to insure that your motor wont just spin 10,500 rpm but actually continue to make power up there – without resorting to excessive heat generating boost pressure.

Camshaft selection will be critical. I have a pretty good idea what we need there but we can’t make a final selection until I have the final flow numbers from your finished head..."



Testing with Chris' intake






Apparently the intake needs different runners. I know nothing about that yet, will update when I call Jeff.

[amd is the best]

I'm very ignorant on all this head trickery however it looks INCREDIBLE! I also like seeing updates here

[EDIGREG]

Top notch.

[highlander69]

Looking great Chris

[vt10vt]

Hot. Damn.

Looking great Chris, can't wait for more updates!

[chaloux]

I second everything above.

[my2000apb]

whats the deal with the runners? shape or volume?

[85oceanic]

Effin-A. Some serious automotive sexiness going on in here.

[loxxrider]

whats the deal with the runners? shape or volume?

Not sure, will let you know when I know.

Master Jeff's secret to success involves a completely different location of the port, significantly larger, and a tapered runner design preferably to get more flow. Templates are on their way back to me, and we are going to cut a custom flange and probably some CNC'ed runners. Old manifold would have been dandy for your everyday 8500rpm 700whp monster, but making power at 9500 requires some tricks to be unleashed

Hank

[chaloux]

Knooooooooooooow

[PRA4WX]

whats the deal with the runners? shape or volume?

Not sure, will let you know when I know.

This timeline doesn't work for me..... ;-)