Help me get my 4000 Started! More Help Needed

[jretal]

Thanks, Jim!

I was on the phone for a bit w/ the Architect trying to trouble shoot, and he had me unplug it and do that. We got it to sputter, but not run.

I have installed the new dizzy, but didn't have the patience to attempt to start the car over the weekend. Spent a ton of time finalizing the headliner, prepping all the glass, and reassembling things.

Might give it a go tonight. Need to combine a few tunes to make sure the fueling is right. We did a rough timing adjustment in the ECU, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Biggest issues I've been running into is that I'm flooding the motor really quickly. So need to lower my fuel tables a little bit in hopes of getting it to fire and not flood out, but still idle properly, etc.

[jretal]

Just wanted to toss these up for your amusement... after spending hours at Carlisle w/ Hank and Marc, the thought was the injectors were not firing ideally. I sent them off to Mr. Injector in good 'ol Idaho for a cleaning/servicing... and to my delight... it seems this did the trick!

https://vimeo.com/68527322

https://vimeo.com/68527508

Needless to say, I was a bit giddy to hear the 'ol bird fire and idle. It's not running overly happily b/c none of the intercooler/turbo stuff is hooked up (still working that), so the fuel table is really off. I fiddled with the main scaler on the fuel table to richen things up a little bit so I was able to rev it up.

Hope to get some time this week to finish mocking up the intercooler and hoping to get to the welder next week to get it tigged up. Once that's done, I might be able to finally get this thing running again!

[Hank]

Awesome, I am glad to know my diagnosis skills are on par with Craig's.

Hank

[EDIGREG]

nice!

[jretal]

haha, yeah, Hank... I'm just not allowing you near my car again w/ a can of starting fluid :-P

Appreciate all the help you and Marc provided at Carlisle... was MUCH appreciated!

[EDIGREG]

with all that stimulation Hank was giving her, she had to pop eventually

[jretal]

he certainly was "strong arming" the 'ol girl, wasn't he

[jretal]

Hey all,

So I finally have the 'ol girl buttoned up mechanically. IC is installed and coolant system is reconnected and bled. Spent about 30 minutes today tinkering w/ the fueling table to get the car revving moderately cleanly without backfiring, etc.

At this point, I have a feeling the timing is still off a bit, as about the 3300 RPM level it starts backfiring like mad (think launch control). Makes me think my timing #s are set wrong.

Here are the timing tables in teh ECU... can you guys give them a look see and make sure I have everything set correctly? If not, what values should I be changing?





and here's a video (when it finishes loading) of the car revving. Don't mind the EGT readings, as the probe is shot. Haven't had a chance to order a new one yet.

[vimeo]vimeo.com/70373237[/vimeo]

[Rocket SLC]

I believe you will want to smooth out your "RPM ing. advance". I dont think thats your real problem here but that needs tweaking. What does the config table look like for the timing degrees? Where the spark actually fires, at what degree.

[Marc]

I believe you will want to smooth out your "RPM ing. advance". I dont think thats your real problem here but that needs tweaking. What does the config table look like for the timing degrees? Where the spark actually fires, at what degree.

actually thats soft enough advance @ 3k to bog the motor.


needs to be closer to 30 degrees or so there.

[Marc]

and lol at having to take 034 screen shots to look at any config data. 5 years and still no offline viewing/editing 034? really?

[jretal]

Marc, not even going there, dude. Like I said, if I had known the frustrations I would have gone through with this setup, I would have been better off w/ the VEMS. I'd kill to be able to work w/ the ECU out of the car and not have to sit there futzing with it in the car, in the 100* garage.

Anyways, here are some more "screen shots" along w/ a log. Turns out that the timing was still ~6degrees off plus there was -10 degrees in the dashboard section (attribute that to when Hank and I messed with the distributor after we had it zero'd in before). So I zero'd that out and rechecked timing and adjusted accordingly in the CONFIG section (10 teeth w/ 10* offset).







and the fuel table:


When doing the pulls, off load I was able to rev until ~4k rpm w/o it breaking up. In first/second gear, as soon as I got near 3k rpm it started backfiring and bucking. Really think it's a timing issue, but I'm not sure at this point.

Input is appreciated as always!

[Rocket SLC]

Post up a pic of your Config settings for your timing as well as your dwell setpoints. I would like to see someone verify that the spark is set to happen at the correct degree points for a 5cyl on the config page.
Your ign% goes to 100% about the time you are at 3250rpm. What is your dwell like? Are you overloading your coil?
Are you able to get to WOT for a bit while you are logging?
Is it possible to tie in your wideband O2 to the O34 Ic ECU?

[bradyzq]

and lol at having to take 034 screen shots to look at any config data. 5 years and still no offline viewing/editing 034? really?

I think the correct response to that is something like "Gyyyyaaaaaaaarrrrrggggghh!! "

[bradyzq]

Do you have a 60 tooth trigger wheel?

Because if you do, each tooth represents 6 crank degrees. So, having an offset of 10 degrees is almost 2 teeth over from the 10th tooth currently selected.

And, sorry if this was mentioned, are you using the distributor as more than a cam sensor? IE, are you using the cap to plug wires? Or COP?

Cheers,
Brady

[jretal]

Dan: Will get pictures up of the config stuff when I get home this afternoon. I haven't tried doing a full WOT pull b/c even at part throttle it's hitting a wall and backfiring, so don't want to make that worse and potentially damage something.

I don't think I'm maxing out the coil, but I don't know, honestly. I know at those 3k rpm pulls, I'm seeing Ignition is at 100% (after picking through the log), but I really don't know what that translates to, honestly.

Also, yes possible to wire in the WBO2 into the 034 ECU, I just haven't done that. Might pick up a second sensor so I can do just that. Hard to look at my stand alone WB setup and check the logs at the same time.

Bradyzq: Yup, using a 60-2 wheel. You're right on the $$ with the correction factors. Need to go back and add a tooth and back down the "fine" tuning. And yes, using the distributor as a cam position sensor, and the distributor to fire the spark plugs and running off a single coil.

[bradyzq]

Hmm,

Your old JT distributor, unless modified to have locked timing, had a mechanical advance mechanism in it, and a vacuum advance too.

Do you know if your new 1 window dizzy is a fixed advance version? I don't know if the NF/NG dizzies are fixed. If it's not, your timing would be waaay off everywhere but idle or whatever RPM you synced the ECU at.

An easy way to test this is to check the "set timing to zero" on the dashboard, then rev the engine while checking timing with a timing light. If the timing advances, you need to lock the distributor.

Cheers,
Brady

[jretal]

It's a fixed distributor from an MC1 motor (one window). So the timing is pretty much locked in and not changing.

Issue I have is, when looking at the logs, I don't know what timing is "right," so to speak (pure ignorance on this one). The timing values top out at around 40 in my log where I hit the mid 3k rpms, but not sure if that's too high, etc... know what I mean? I've never looked at logs of a properly running engine to attempt to interpret.

[jretal]

Alright, step forward...

Turns out I had both phases activated (0* and 360* out) for my ignition coil from when I was trying to get the car started. So the ignition setup was hitting 100% and that was causing the cutout and backfiring. So step forward for sure!

Then took the car out for another spin, but it's now hesitating between high 3k range and up...

After looking through the logs, it looks like my VR sensor signal is varying. Attached the logs of a couple runs I made around the block. Even managed to pass a friendly police officer (with my car having no headlights/grill/bumper on the car), and thankfully he decided he had better things to do than harass me. Had the plates on the car, so I guess that was enough... heh.

I'm assuming that I need to tighten up the gap a little? I'm assuming that once the revs start to climb, there's enough variation for the run out b/n the sensor and the 60-2 wheel that it's causing an issue.

[jretal]

Hey all,

So I'm still fighting something very strange here.

I rechecked the gap on my VR sensor and it's rock solid at .03 (closest recommended) and doesn't seem to be moving.

When I just made two more runs (see logs), I'm getting a wavering VR signal PLUS there are instances where the Injectors go to zero and the Ignition goes to 100. I'm guessing this is more than likely related to the VR numbers jumping.

I'm at a loss at this point... can anyone help me out here? What should I look for? What would cause this to work fine up to around 4k, and then just break up like this? DO I have a dying VR sensor? Is the line somehow getting interference? Is there additional shielding I can put on it?

I'm open for suggestions to tinker. Really want this running properly for Watkins Glen at the end of August, but I need time to do tuning, etc. Is my timing looking OK?

When looking at the charts on the ECU display, once it hits 4k, the rev lines on the charts starts jumping madly b/n 4 and 5k. and doesn't stop until I let off the throttle (obviously). Even pinning the throttle doesn't result in gained RPMs, the car just starts backfiring. Sounds like I have launch control kicking on, but obviously that's not the case since Ic doesn't have that option.

My knock light also isn't flashing or going nuts, but who knows if that's accurate at this point.

Any/All help is MUCH appreciated. Thanks!

[bradyzq]

Have you tried reversing the polarity of the VR sensor? Swapping the wires at the ECU.

[bradyzq]

And 034 specs an air gap of 0.05" for VR sensors. My car had a similar issue and it turned out that my VR sensor bracket had loosened and I had effectively no gap. Car ran fine up to some RPM (I forget how high) then backfired and wouldn't rev any higher.

[jretal]

Brady: I think you're right. I've been exchanging a few PMs w/ Jarid (the Architect on MG), and he suspects that the gap is a little too tight (currently at .026"). I am going to back it out to .05 and see if that helps any. I'm crossing my fingers it's that easy.

VR sensor is wired correctly though, but I think what you last mentioned is hopefully the issue at this point. We shall see.

[jretal]

Alright, regapped the VR sensor again to .057" and that seems to have done the trick! I have full revs and no signs of a bad WDBG reading and no random 0 or 100% values for the injection or ignition areas...

So I guess now it's time to start road tuning, huh? Let the fun begin! Will toss in my 2.2bar spring and see what we can come up with

Thanks all for the help! Much appreciated.

[my2000apb]

yay!