Time For Forged Internals...

[PRY4SNO]

Tax time... been planning on building one of my 7As now for a while and had this year's return earmarked for this specific purpose.

Talk to me about the specifics, the nerdy and technical details.


Pistons/rods:
I'm thinking Wossner pistons because they're made in Germany and control is maintained from their own in-house foundry through to final distribution. For rods, some DMF I-beams.

Next best bets, so far are CP/Carrillo or Mahle Powerpack/DMF.


I've read that JE are not conducive to longevity. Trying to avoid that.


Bearings:
Are the coated ones necessary? What's the power/rev threshold where they become an improvement? Or are we talking more for cold starts, which I'll be affected by up here in the Great White North...

[PRY4SNO]

http://www.wossnerpistons.com/products/ ... -5-mm-bore

These are what I was thinking but the low compression is BS.

Want 9.3:1 ish.

[chaloux]

Where did you read about je?

Also why not lower compression? What turbo are you using? And fuel? It might be beneficial depending on the turbo to get into a better efficiency island and make more powa.

[PRY4SNO]

(http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.p ... oker-Build)

- Originally Posted by suffocatemymind View Post
My cousin's old 9a 16vT was built with balanced JE's (and bottom end) and that was a bit noisy when cold, but definitely not intolerable. -

That noise was the engine unnecessarily wearing itself.

Pete DOES know what he's talking about, and I have a ton of respect for him, as well as what he's done for the community.

That said; he's trying to sell parts, point blank. The JE's are available wholesale with an aggressive price structure, meaning more profit.

Pete didn't address the additional wear; because he knows that it's true. He didn't address the decreased lifespan of the engine; because he knows it's true. He didn't address the fact that 2618 alloy is completely unnecessary in most street car builds; because he knows it's true.

Pete posted anecdotal evidence of "guys who drive 45 miles each way to work". No offense Pete. It is what it is.

Lets keep things clear, and in perspective here folks. Use the right product for its intended purpose. If your trying to build a drag car, dyno queen, or have money to burn, and want to rebuild every couple years Godspeed to you. Run those 2618 alloy pistons..

For all the rest of the builds out there (assuming you're 500ish WHP or less) run a piston with OE like expansion, and cylinder to wall clearances.

[PRY4SNO]

Also why not lower compression? What turbo are you using? And fuel? It might be beneficial depending on the turbo to get into a better efficiency island and make more powa.

Want to keep higher compression for better off-boost response. We only get 91 octane, or 94 blends of e10/91.

Haven't decided on a turbo yet but I'm at the point where it's time to build internals and start serious research. My goals are to run with and hopefully pull on my friends with stage 3 b5s4s.

Was thinking around the billet gtx/hta 35 range.

[chaloux]

Also why not lower compression? What turbo are you using? And fuel? It might be beneficial depending on the turbo to get into a better efficiency island and make more powa.

Want to keep higher compression for better off-boost response. We only get 91 octane, or 94 blends of e10/91.

Haven't decided on a turbo yet but I'm at the point where it's time to build internals and start serious research. My goals are to run with and hopefully pull on my friends with stage 3 b5s4s.

Was thinking around the billet gtx/hta 35 range.

The link isn't working, got buggered somehow. But that's interesting. I have read over and over that smaller clearances should be used - we used .003" on both of our JE builds.

Too bad about the fuel. We've got Petro Canada (previously Sunoco) 94 octane with no E here in Onterrible. There's a fellow overseas (forget his username) but he posted on dad's stroker thread (imported here or on motorgeek) that when you run lower compression you make up for the loss in response by adding advance. We found this to be true with dad's car as well, felt great off boost once it was tuned on the dyno. No different power curves than cars running stock compression pistons.

To hang with/beat stg3 b5s, you need a built car with 30r (or equivalent, at te minimum), supporting mods (cams, fuel pump, exhaust, etc), and a proper tune (DYNO). And if you're going that size you want to be pushing as much boost as possible for efficiency, I'm talking about on pump gas, so you're limited to ~30ish or mid thirties with lower compression if you wanna be a badass.

[loxxrider]

Not so fast. Nick beat his stg. 3 b5s4 with his (non-built) 200 with 30r. Just sayin'

[chaloux]

Yeah, he had the 30r as I said and chose not to build his internals. But to do it without worry... internals.

[mushasho]

Not so fast. Nick beat his stg. 3 b5s4 with his (non-built) 200 with 30r. Just sayin'

Yeah on e85 though....

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[EDIGREG]

Yeah on e85 though....

not really relevant since he was not using E85 for it's advantages - high boost and MBT. His car would have made just as much power on a good pump gas tune

[loxxrider]

I thought at the time of that video it was on pump. I could definitely be wrong though. I would look, but my internet is way too sucky.

[PRY4SNO]

Nick was using 93 octane but both cars had 93 octane so it was even in that regard. Fairly even in most respects actually... So I want something just a bit more convincing, hence the built motor.

Nobody has opinions on Mahle or CP slugs?

[loxxrider]

Mahle makes exceptional pistons from what I've heard. Hank chose Wiseco's for my build. Not sure how they compare to what else is out there, but I'm sure they'll be just fine.

[PRY4SNO]

Yeah they have a great rep with OEMs, racing and aftermarket... and they're neither inexpensive nor expensive.

What four cylinder option would be comparable, the 16v 1.8 the 20v 1.8t or the newer 2.0tsi? The challenge here is wristpin and valve clearances, no?

[amd is the best]

I was on pump fuel in both cars when the runs took place. I pushed the 200 further then it had ever been which was ~27-28psi but before the 7A cams. Cars were fairly evenly matched even at that point. I did have some runs down at H2Oi this year with a FrankenTurbo Fblahblah S4 while on pump gas and edged him out too @ ~25psi IIRC. All still on the stock intercooler which is why I have kept my timing very conservative (I believe). Timing is around 13* at torque spike and advances to 18* by 7500 redline on the pump gas map.

That being said, when I build my engine there is not a chance in the world I'll be lowering the compression. 9.5:1 or 10:1. And I will without a doubt run it on pump gas and not worry about it at all.

I have no input on piston brand, so back on topic.

[85oceanic]

Hank chose Wiseco's for my build.

I have a buddy with a Starion that used Wiseco's and damn, not only have I heard good things about them, they sure looked purty.

[audifreakjim]

I sure like mine

[PRY4SNO]

I sure like mine

What compression are you running?

2.2L?

[PRY4SNO]

We do not offer a shelf piston for your engine. We can build you a custom set to get both the compression you are needing and cut the valve pockets larger diameter for oversize valves. For 5 pistons with pins, locks, and rings you are looking at $998.00 and takes about 6-8 weeks. We would also need a sample piston. Alex Russell
Wossner Pistons
714-369-854715638 Graham St
Huntington Beach CA 92649
alex@wossnerpistons.com
www.wossnerpistons.com

Hmmm... worth considering, for sure.

[audifreakjim]

I sure like mine

What compression are you running?

2.2L?

8.5:1 for 83mm bore. Closer to 2.3L

[audifreakjim]

I sure like mine

What compression are you running?

2.2L?

8.5:1 for 83mm bore. Closer to 2.3L

[chaloux]

When we saw the amount of det on dad's coated JE pistons and that they lasted a few thousand KM without any signs of problems is a pretty good testament to JE in my mind. The coating really does wonders against det hurting the piston, but unfortunately the rings still get annihilated.

[PRY4SNO]

From Mahle:

These would be a custom part for us
...
$1,320 for pins clips and rings , US funds.
10-12 weeks for completion
Coatings are included , skirt and pin and ring coatings come standard on every MAHLE piston.

Kind regards,

Jason Griffin
jason.griffin@us.mahle.com

[PRY4SNO]

***EDIT***

Deleted due to misquote... CP pistons are only available for 84mm and up :(