Loxxrider's 200 20v Revver: See you on "The Project Pad"

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:57 am

I was told by someone else to back the timing off a bit when it hits peak torque...may go out and try that.

Toxcheap · Post by **Toxcheap** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:40 am

loxxrider wrote:I was told by someone else to back the timing off a bit when it hits peak torque...may go out and try that.

OH so you'll listen to someone else but not me.. I see how it is

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:31 pm

Hey hey now, I didn't know thats what you were suggesting!!

Now that I look back you did talk a lot about detonation and that makes complete sense, but I was having a terrible morning lol sorry.

The reason it looks like a LOT of timing in that map is because I added some in per Kevin's request just for some testing (for the time it took to get that log only). About 3 degrees above 150kpa. Its back down on timing since then. Of course, now its time to back more off.

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:44 pm

ugh look at this BS.

Megatune does this shit to my files. No idea why.

I have it on two computers...one with XP and one with Vista. It does it on both.

I'm posting a thread to figure it out.

Attachment ( 18133 ) : ughhhhh megatune.JPG

Toxcheap · Post by **Toxcheap** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:20 am

Sorry are you saying it changes your MAP?
I messed around with megalogviewer yesterday and I really didn't like it much. Msybe I didn't spend enough time trying to configure the windows but the way think about why should I have too?

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:45 am

Yeah, I don't love Megalogviewer either...but its all I have/know how to use. I don't know how to use it completely, but I can at least diagnose stuff with it a little.

Anyway, yes it is changing my map.

Kevin said this in e-mail

"One thing i've noticed about that Lambda table thing, is I only notice it in that table.
I havent seen it (yet) make the car run crazy, and/or show those bad values in the datalog on the "lambdaTarget" graph."

BUT I have noticed it while driving. It showed up on my megatune screen while driving the car at one point this past year. Thats how I noticed there was a problem. Also, one time it effed things up so bad that the whole table was just stupid rich and the car would barely even run. I remember talking to Kevin on the phone about this as it was happening...I'm sure he will recall when I run it by him.

Maybe its just version 2.25 of megatune. I have been using it instead of 2.25 p3 for a while now just because of familiarity...but I'm switching over now due to some features p3 offers.

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:54 am

ahhh wtf haha I switched it over to AFR on the computer I have been using and now it shows up perfect? wtf mate

Attachment ( 18136 ) : megatunewtflol.JPG

justrack · Post by **justrack** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:40 pm

From what I understand, a misfire, backfire, or anything else that sends unburnt fuel and air through the exhaust can cause a false lean reading. The unburnt air causes a higher oxygen content in the exhaust which the O2 sensor picks up. Even though the air and fuel may still be in the perfect ratio, the O2 sensor can't detect the unburnt fuel, so it reads lean. Though you should still look into it, since it's not worth the risk. An EGT probe would be useful :wink:

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:34 am

justrack wrote:From what I understand, a misfire, backfire, or anything else that sends unburnt fuel and air through the exhaust can cause a false lean reading. The unburnt air causes a higher oxygen content in the exhaust which the O2 sensor picks up. Even though the air and fuel may still be in the perfect ratio, the O2 sensor can't detect the unburnt fuel, so it reads lean. Though you should still look into it, since it's not worth the risk. An EGT probe would be useful :wink:

YES, I was actually thinking that same thing the other day, though it was just a guess as I had no real evidence or knowledge to back it up.

Hope my sparkyplugs fix it...should be waiting for me at my house right now wooo.

and nice effin sig dude ahahaha

we have to explain what it means

arctic-20v · Post by **arctic-20v** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:39 am

justrack wrote:From what I understand, a misfire, backfire, or anything else that sends unburnt fuel and air through the exhaust can cause a false lean reading. The unburnt air causes a higher oxygen content in the exhaust which the O2 sensor picks up. Even though the air and fuel may still be in the perfect ratio, the O2 sensor can't detect the unburnt fuel, so it reads lean. Though you should still look into it, since it's not worth the risk. An EGT probe would be useful :wink:

I'm not sure, about that and here is my experience which is very limited. This last spring one of my cylinders wasn't firing because of bent intake valves and was just dumping raw fuel/Air into the exhaust. The O2 was reading rich like 10:1. Unknowing of that condition we tried all we could do to lean out our motor and eventually adjusted timing and fuel to were we built 20psi insanely quick on partial throttle, blew the HG, my radiator, and had quite a bit of detonation because the 4 other cylinders were actually very lean. Even though our 02 was reading at most 11:1

and of course I could, be totally wrong, since my experience involved a lot more unburnt fuel than just a mis fire or back fire.

justrack · Post by **justrack** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:15 am

arctic-20v wrote:I'm not sure, about that and here is my experience which is very limited. This last spring one of my cylinders wasn't firing because of bent intake valves and was just dumping raw fuel/Air into the exhaust. The O2 was reading rich like 10:1. Unknowing of that condition we tried all we could do to lean out our motor and eventually adjusted timing and fuel to were we built 20psi insanely quick on partial throttle, blew the HG, my radiator, and had quite a bit of detonation because the 4 other cylinders were actually very lean. Even though our 02 was reading at most 11:1

and of course I could, be totally wrong, since my experience involved a lot more unburnt fuel than just a mis fire or back fire.

hmm that's interesting. I can't say I've had a lot of experience either, so my understanding could just as easily be wrong. But i think i remember reading something like that in a tuning book or somewhere that it would spike lean and it does make sense when you think about it. Maybe some of the unburnt fuel collected on the sensor blocking the exhaust gases and fouling it? Or maybe just a bad O2 sensor? Just guessing.

Some of the engines that i have worked on had individual EGT sensors for each cylinder so it was very easy to see if there were any cylinders out. I've even seen some motors that have an O2 sensor for every cylinder also. expensive stuff (especially on v8's)

arctic-20v · Post by **arctic-20v** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:31 am

justrack wrote:hmm that's interesting. I can't say I've had a lot of experience either, so my understanding could just as easily be wrong. But i think i remember reading something like that in a tuning book or somewhere that it would spike lean and it does make sense when you think about it. Maybe some of the unburnt fuel collected on the sensor blocking the exhaust gases and fouling it? Or maybe just a bad O2 sensor? Just guessing.

Some of the engines that i have worked on had individual EGT sensors for each cylinder so it was very easy to see if there were any cylinders out. I've even seen some motors that have an O2 sensor for every cylinder also. expensive stuff (especially on v8's)

It is intresting, I have been spending all morning at work trying to learn more of the "Chemisty" part of how o2 sensors work. Luckily its my last day and not much is going on. I am finding mostly "surface" information on the operation of the sensors. I'll keep looking, since things like this bug me until I find an answer.

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:57 pm

Yeah this is gay. I got my sparkplugs in...going to install them right after this.

I got a version of megatune that I know for sure is the same as the one on my ecu and its still doing funky stuff. (the computer doesnt even have to be hooked up to the ECU)...this happens when I'm just playing with the maps in my house or something too.

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:38 pm

no dice still backfires

trying to get in touch with kevin to see why

ill post logs in a bit, though I had to take them on the computer that hates my car (usb to serial connection likes to cause little glitches in the logs)

I am seeing lean spikes :(

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:14 pm

hmmmm

took the car out for 6 or 7 more pulls and it freakin ripped without a backfire the whole time...weird...

i have some vidz lol

like usual they are crappy cellphone ones

will get those up along with a log of earlier.

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:37 pm

k vid first (first gear pulls like a bitch when it spikes past 15psi like its NOT supposed to lol...PID values need a little adjustment, but its too much fun when it spikes like that for me to care

)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du6G2lIWXYM

and then there are two parts of the log I made earlier that are of interest...

first is a small part throttle pull where it did the backfire (first pull I made with it after the plugs)

second is a full throttle pull with no backfire...look at the AFR's tho.

and the full log file if you'd like. It sucks, but you have to ignore the little red lines all thru that

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:16 pm

was pulling out of my friends driveway and it made the back tire tuck like that haha I was so happy to see it low that I had to take pics. (cell phone)

I know, lame...but I cant help it!

I couldn't have gotten any better with the fitment on these wheels. So awesome. Still need to trim that particular fender liner.

Cant wait for coils!!!! Anyone have suggestions on what springrate I should use? I don't mind a harsh ride at all as long as handling is good.

Also, I am definitely a believer in those plugs now. It just sorta hit me how much better the car runs now. W000t!!!! Still gotta figure out issues, but its a little light in this damn car's situation haha.

justrack · Post by **justrack** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:24 pm

Good to see your plugs made a difference. sucks you still have some backfire though. maybe kevin will know.

I don't guess you're still heading to tampa tomorrow?

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:29 pm

:woowoo:

made some progress tonight.

I have to get the door panels back on the car before I go back up to school next weekend. The only problem is that that requires a lot of modification to my door panels...here is what I did tonight lol

had to get rid of this look...its been like 2 months lol

finally got it to sit down all the way!!!!

and they close!

yeah son

obviously I'm not going to leave them that way. Not sure exactly what I want to do with them yet, but I have a feeling it is going to involve fiberglass. Might just make a wooden ring/frame thing and glue that to the door panel...then stretch some cloth over that, then pour some resin over that, then cut a hole where the speaker sits, and finally cover all of that with some black cloth for a grille.

I'll be spending a good part of tomorrow putting the rest of the interior back together.

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:32 pm

justrack wrote:Good to see your plugs made a difference. sucks you still have some backfire though. maybe kevin will know.

I don't guess you're still heading to tampa tomorrow?

oh yeah, I forgot to let you know about that...

he didn't get his injectors in time and wants to do it all at once, so he should have them Monday so I think we may do it Wednesday. I'll let you know when I know!

derrish_vulf · Post by **derrish_vulf** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 4:51 am

I was talking to casey about his saetup and he was running 400 fronts and 450 rears. I bumped it up a tad on mine and got 450 fronts 500 rears, I also went with a 6 inch spring, but i still need to find some shorter strut inserts for the front.

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:57 am

So 6 inch springs compared to...

and you need shorter strut inserts than say a bilstein sport?

derrish_vulf · Post by **derrish_vulf** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:27 am

Oh sorry, when i discussed it with casey he had mentioned he used 7 inch springs. You do not NEED shorter strut inserts. I believe casey is using billies as well but the problem is when you lower it a decent a mount the suspension travel SUCKS on these cars. Id like to find a set of inserts/ or have koni make a set of shorter inserts, shorten my strut tubes so i can lower it to my liking and still have more than an inch or suspension travel :-D

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:58 am

Yeah, ok...I think I will be alright with very little suspension travel. Thats why I am asking for recommendations for spring rates. I want it to sit where it is, and pretty much just stick to the road that way lol.

loxxrider · Post by **loxxrider** » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:32 pm

Had another batch of issues tonight.

It did rain really hard, so I'm not sure whether it should be attributed to rain or more ECU problems.

The car was doing this back when it somehow got the wrong setting in the ecu for the H2 stuff. The top one was listed as stepper instead of ign. I haven't touched the ECU today and it just randomly started doing this.

First of all, it would lose RPM signal completely then just run like crap because its defaulting to a low afr value I assume. As soon as I cycle ignition power, its fine and runs perfectly again.

Also sometimes when cranking, RPM's will jump up and it will simultaneously sound like its out of time or something...just for a split second...then it will continue cranking and fire up.

I'll hook the ECU up in the morning and see if that H2 value got changed again somehow.