Nick's 1991 200q Project - QUAT44RO

[amd is the best]

Haha Allan, it was a good ball busting! You weren't the only one either. I want the A/C back and now I'm stumped! Any insight?

[32vquattro]

if converting to r134a, i wouldn't put in more than 900 grams, or 80% of original r12 fill (i believe is 1100 grams) and replace all the o - ring on the hoses you reinstalled

[32vquattro]

the good thing is, you verified the a/c clutch worked, and there are no codes indicating a bad low or high pressure switch

[amd is the best]

I have replaced all of the o-rings and everything seems good and sealed (no audible leaks). I only sprayed in maybe half of the can, so I'm sure it needs a bunch more.

Relay maybe at this point?

[32vquattro]

I would check the signal wire going to the relay (check at the relay) if you get voltage there, and it doesn't have a corresponding "click" , then its bad. if good, then check wiring from relay to clutch. Sorry, i know its kind of vague, but i don't have wiring diagrams for the 200 20v, and am hesitant on giving you the v8 wiring colors, as they may be wrong for your car.

[32vquattro]

half can, wouldnt
turn your system on. need at least two cans. you tried bridging the the wires at the low presur switch with the a/c set to auto, and the compressor didn't kick on?

[crappyoldaudis]

Are you spraying into the nipple down on the pump itself while the engine is running, with the A/C on full blast?

A large 34oz can will barely full the system. If you waste any by getting the fitting cock-eyed, you'll need another can. Get one that comes with the line with a gauge on it.

You calibrate the gauge per instructions and spay away, then the kompressor will kick on as soon as the head unit sees the minimum pressure.

[amd is the best]

I would check the signal wire going to the relay (check at the relay) if you get voltage there, and it doesn't have a corresponding "click" , then its bad. if good, then check wiring from relay to clutch. Sorry, i know its kind of vague, but i don't have wiring diagrams for the 200 20v, and am hesitant on giving you the v8 wiring colors, as they may be wrong for your car.

I am getting a click from the relay yet no engagement of the clutch. I checked the pin at the relay that runs to the clutch and the connector at the clutch for continuity and it was good.

half can, wouldnt
turn your system on. need at least two cans. you tried bridging the the wires at the low presur switch with the a/c set to auto, and the compressor didn't kick on?

I did try bridging the wires and it didn't make the compressor engage. It should even with an empty system at the point correct?

Are you spraying into the nipple down on the pump itself while the engine is running, with the A/C on full blast?

A large 34oz can will barely full the system. If you waste any by getting the fitting cock-eyed, you'll need another can. Get one that comes with the line with a gauge on it.

You calibrate the gauge per instructions and spay away, then the kompressor will kick on as soon as the head unit sees the minimum pressure.

I am spraying the refrigerant into the nipple on the compressor itself, yes. Engine running, Auto, Lo. I have about a can in there right now (32oz).

I just picked up a relay from a friend which was a known working relay and it did not fix the issue.

[crappyoldaudis]

I seem to remember my 20v needing more than 32oz when it was dead empty. Prolly cause you dont get the full 32oz out of a can, but I need a solid can and a half - the big ones.

Do you have the can that comes with the blue hose with a gauge on it and does it go into the "green" zone? while you hold down the spray button? It has to be while you are holding down the spray button.

maybe the wire from the solenoid to the kompressor is actually broken.

[amd is the best]

Fixed the issue. Bad connection between the A/C compressor and the vehicle harness (green connector). Cleaned it up and that took care of it. I knew I was looking to far into the issue (as I always do).

Good to go.

Also, switch back to E85 today but it's blowing the spark out. I just put 7's in the car at Carlisle however 8's are what I usually run on E85. I'll be switching them back tomorrow.

[crappyoldaudis]

hooray!

[amd is the best]

Back on the quest for an intercooler... What do you guys think about an air to water setup? I am eyeing this setup:



http://www.cxracing.com/mm5/merchant.mv ... _Code=AWIC

Any input?

[ringbearer]

I've been thinking about this style too. Some love it, some hate it...

[Hank]

What sort of lambda values on e85?

[amd is the best]

I tune the E85 for .80-.81 and I am around 145-150kpa of boost. What do you think Hank? I am no expert tuner and I know that E85 can run a bit more lean then pump gas however I don't want any molten aluminum either.

What do you tune for on E85?

[loxxrider]

You mean 250 kPa? Those values should be about right. However, lambda is lambda. Tune just like you do on gas in my opinion.

[amd is the best]

You mean 250 kPa? Those values should be about right. However, lambda is lambda. Tune just like you do on gas in my opinion.

150kpa of BOOST (subtracted atmospheric). I know lambda is lambda, but I've read and heard that E85 can be a bit more on the lean side even under full load. I still stick to basically the same tuning while on E85 that I used with pump fuel. Just completely shut off the IAT ignition retard and add a few degrees of timing. I am probably not even taking advantage of the great benefits that could be had with E85 but I am close to the limit of the stock bottom end anyway, so no need to push it.

Also, my injectors are at ~90% duty at that boost level on my 3bar pressure regulator. I'll probably drop in the 7a regulator this weekend and retune.

[loxxrider]

Ah OK, I usually refer to it as absolute rather than gauge since that's what we tune with. I'm sure you could go a little leaner, but the thing is, going leaner does pretty much jack squat for power in the grand scheme of things unless it really started plain pig rich. This is just my opinion based on tuning sessions I've been involved with. How much more timing do you have in the e85 map compared to pump? You should be able to get at least 5 deg in there, but it all depends on your pump tune (among other things) of course. I'm sure these are all things you know, but maybe not!

[amd is the best]

I'll post them up, just have to run out to my car and grab my laptop. I hardly doubt that I've added 5 degrees other then actually running the timing my map calls for instead of getting yanked out by the MAT related ignition retard.

Maps in a min.

[Hank]

Lambda is NOT lambda. It is close, but if you calculate out molecular weights, you see the error. A true statement is that 1.00 lambda is lambda for any fuel, but .82 lambda on e85 is not equivelants with .82 on gasoline. The sensor doesn't know what fuel is being used, so it is only measuring oxygen content. If petrol and e85 contained as equivelants oxygen molecules in a balanced equation, it would work, but it doesn't.

All that doesn't matter if you just realize that e85 typically makes good power on the gasoline lambda scale of .79-.82 at wot. Much leaner and I find you either need crazy dwell in the 7-8ms range to light off the mixture or you get lean misfires. On my old 2.2l, 16 degrees at torque peak tapered out to 30 by redline made good power. I had slightly higher compression though and i am at altitude.

[amd is the best]

Lambda is NOT lambda. It is close, but if you calculate out molecular weights, you see the error. A true statement is that 1.00 lambda is lambda for any fuel, but .82 lambda on e85 is not equivelants with .82 on gasoline. The sensor doesn't know what fuel is being used, so it is only measuring oxygen content. If petrol and e85 contained as equivelants oxygen molecules in a balanced equation, it would work, but it doesn't.

All that doesn't matter if you just realize that e85 typically makes good power on the gasoline lambda scale of .79-.82 at wot. Much leaner and I find you either need crazy dwell in the 7-8ms range to light off the mixture or you get lean misfires. On my old 2.2l, 16 degrees at torque peak tapered out to 30 by redline made good power. I had slightly higher compression though and i am at altitude.

Awesome info Hank, thank you.

I am around 13 degrees at the torque spike and maybe 20 by redline. Stock 9.3:1 CR and not much higher then sea level. I guess I've got some room to increase a bit.

[loxxrider]

Lambda is NOT lambda. It is close, but if you calculate out molecular weights, you see the error. A true statement is that 1.00 lambda is lambda for any fuel, but .82 lambda on e85 is not equivelants with .82 on gasoline. The sensor doesn't know what fuel is being used, so it is only measuring oxygen content. If petrol and e85 contained as equivelants oxygen molecules in a balanced equation, it would work, but it doesn't.

All that doesn't matter if you just realize that e85 typically makes good power on the gasoline lambda scale of .79-.82 at wot. Much leaner and I find you either need crazy dwell in the 7-8ms range to light off the mixture or you get lean misfires. On my old 2.2l, 16 degrees at torque peak tapered out to 30 by redline made good power. I had slightly higher compression though and i am at altitude.

Ugh, that reminds me of the combustion part of my thermo-fluids lab. That was semi-interesting, but had to do chemistry again blegh. Obviously a specific lambda for one fuel vs another doesn't mean that there is the same ratio of air to fuel on a mass or molecular weight basis. I was just trying to say that you can treat it as equivalent for tuning reference.

[Hank]

Precisely. It does shed light on why ethanol likes to be "lean" per say to make max power. IIRC, the error at .8 lambda is something like 6% lean. If that is the case, true lambda on an ethanol scale is lots richer and settles into that .75-.76 that makes more sense with fuel economy returns.

It took me a while to figure this out. I spent over 20 hours on the dyno with our formula car trying to optimize fuel maps for endurance races where we are only given 2.3L worth of fuel to cover 22 miles at full race speed. The math did not match the data at lambda being .82 at WOT.

Like you said, you just treat .80-.82 on the gas scale as the power maker for Ethanol and just continue living in ignorance that Lambda is different aside from 1.00 lambda Small technicality.

[loxxrider]

It's easier to explain that way

[EDIGREG]

I tuned my e85 map for .85 @ 200kPa, .80 @ 280kPa, .75 @ 320kPa. And of course blending in-between.