B3 90Q 07k

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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:32 pm

PRY4SNO wrote:Watching builds like this progress is why I tell guys at work that my only strengths with fabrication lies in resumes and alibis.

Ha... you are professional fabricator !
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby highlander69 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:48 pm

Looking amazing!!!!

I really like how you keep evolving your ideas. I do the same thing. :beer: :beer: :drive:

Thanks for updating.
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The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:47 pm

Yeah as you mentioned Craig space is key and it’s seeming pretty difficult to come up with a good plenum design that uses the space and still allows for a radiator on the side if desired .

Here are some pics of how it would sit in the car . So I’m happy with how the length and angle ends up.
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ImageThis will end up being some expensive intake but it’s just something I’ve been wanting to build .
Anyway I probably won’t do much more on it for now , as I need to keep plugging away on the small items on the 90. Need to make a couple small changes on my
Head flange design and get a few cut before I can finish this anyways .
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby highlander69 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:50 pm

Looks awesome !!
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby audifreakjim » Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:38 am

Pat, love the documentation and fab work!
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The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Tue Dec 01, 2020 10:30 pm

audifreakjim wrote:Pat, love the documentation and fab work!

some of the stuff is probably redundant but it seems often times I end up referring to these build threads down the road quite a bit to remember what I did or what part numbers I used
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby PRY4SNO » Wed Dec 02, 2020 12:46 pm

It is very helpful!

Considering how much time it takes to stop what you're doing when you're on a roll fabricating or wrenching, the effort is certainly appreciated. :beer:
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby jbrentd » Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:43 pm

Keep it up! I enjoy keeping up with the great work you're doing.
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The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Thu Dec 03, 2020 10:25 pm

Here’s some more stuff mostly just pics .
I need to sort out a way to get the Parking brake mounted . So here’s my first try at it . Not sure what I’m doing but I think I’m on the right path . Looking to do something similar to the old BBK I used to have for my b5 s4 .


I couldn’t find many options for mechanical parking brakes so I bought the largest Wilwood MC4 parking brake caliper they had . The caliper still was around 2mm shy of being able to fit over the rotor . So I figured either I could attempt to sand down the pads somehow or just add a spacer into the caliper .
I’ll see if I can find some pics of that .
Image


()

Now that it fits over the rotor I am looking for a way to mount it . Starting with the original brake dust shield as a rough template I believe I can go off of those holes . The downside is that they are like m5 or m6 bolts so I may have to use this to mock it all up, then pull the entire knuckle from the car , press the hub out , and tap the holes out to a larger size like
M8 or m10.
I got a 4” Carbide hole saw from Lowe’s, The only metal in the shop was stainless and I was afraid to try and cut that so I went and got a scrap piece of 3/16” carbon steel plate . Drew about a 350mm circle on that and it will get trimmed down later . Image
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4” seems to be almost perfect , may need little (if any ) grinding.
For now the bracket is too big and I can figure out where to trim it later .
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The bracket does not fit flush, to get it to sit flat/parallel with the rotor I think I will need approx 4mm spacer on backside of the bracket for the two upper two bolts only , will test with some washers .
Image


Image

I should be able to get the caliper to sit between here and here (about 10 o’clock position maybe )
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Image
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:31 am

So I’m working on getting some things set up right and I’ve realized there are a few things I don’t understand yet regarding how to make this actually run....

From all my research , the rear 60-2 on this is “hall” and the missing two teeth are ~99 degrees btdc .
The info that I can’t find is how to set up in VEMS for this odd “two big two small windows” cam position sensing that the 07k has . Does anybody know what this type of trigger is called or what I should search for ?
Image
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby highlander69 » Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:54 pm

Mark Swanson, or Jim (Glibbo) will know.

I think you cut one window off, but not 100% sure.
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Mon Dec 14, 2020 2:49 pm

Thanks for the reply buddy, Yeah scratching my head on this a lot , Jimolde said he did mod his cam , and ran single window - but then I think I may not be able to run VVT if I do that... So there has to be a way to configure it as an 4 window I would think? However I can’t see any way in the VEMS settings to do that . I just see “rising / falling “ and typical choices like auditrigger , other things like “Maserati special” .

So I understand I might need to rotate the firing order as well, but I can’t get there now without spark . Image
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby audifreakjim » Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:36 pm

Pat, just sent you my config via FB Messenger, the secondary trigger is the same as above. I think you can use the filtering to ignore the other pulses on the Cam, 168 reflects this from
https://vems.hu/vt/help/v3/v3_secondary ... tings.html

-a setting of 128+40 means that the secondary trigger is only considered when the amount of primary triggers between two consecutive secondary pulses is greater than 40, highlighted in red window on the triggerlog below. Only the secondary pulse after the end of the red window is accepted, all others are ignored.

I'm pretty sure I got my config from Sean's car so I don't know how this works 100%
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The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:00 pm

Thanks for the help Jim, I have mine basically exactly same as yours is set up, minus “TDc after trigger”
Did not make any changes to those two boxes on the bottom to ignore sec trig after “”.
I think Ive got it almost all the way there . without any major changes , no mods to the cam.. have spark now , just need it to be in the right place . Tomorrow I’ll do some reading up on how to achieve this because what I thought I would do isn’t working .
Image



With the timing light connected to #1 , timing in on my ignition map set to zero at cranking speeds and a little above ,
I could see it was about 100 deg off.
I slowly moved “TDC after trigger “ until I ran out of adjustment. that gets me to here ( pic below) . Max input is like 127.5 deg after trigger and it’s still not enough
Image

I thought how I read it is that If I run out of adjustment I could mess with the ignition outputs by using the rotate button (see pic below ) but I tried that and it didn’t change anything as far as angle so in next few days I’ll Get that figured out then hopefully be putting the rest of the car together.
Image
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby audifreakjim » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:23 am

Getting closer. You are probably firing #1 at the wrong time. Also, any reason why you are using a stepper output? I'm not sure it matters, but that would drive me nuts
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The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:25 pm

Yep , close . I had to go to sleep because I’ve been working on this after work every night but technically it will start and idle right now just fine .
So once I’ve shuffled things and sorted the timing I should be good to go - I do have to sort the shift linkage and rear brakes , put in the dash , and some other things to do.
I also couldn’t get the brakes fully bled yet but I ordered a motive pressure bleeder Finally and hopefully that will assist with that .

I’ve also got another engine on a stand now that I will start pulling apart so I can build it up for real now .
On the trigger not 100% sure to be honest
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby A1QSHIP » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:12 pm

This is what I did for a handbrake. HTH
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=2348
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The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:57 pm

A1QSHIP wrote:This is what I did for a handbrake. HTH
http://forum.irozmotorsport.com/viewtop ... =28&t=2348

Thanks a lot ! That is super helpful, I’ll read through it .
That bracket turned out really nice .

This is almost exactly what I’m looking to do . Now that I’m looking at your pics , it looks like increasing the size of the bracket and ditching that 3rd hole would be nice because it eliminates the issue of different offsets on the mounting holes...
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The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:22 am

So the car can run now. Thanks to Norbert, Chris , Jimolde, Shawn , Jim otherwise it wouldn't be running for another 6 months.

I have some more work and cross checking to do but here's what I figured out in case anyone else does this.

First I had my settings for VR not Hall. The rear main seal on this is hall. Thanks to Shawn C for pointing that out. That explained intermittent/no spark on 1. Fixed that , then...

I went off the info in the "07K FAQ thread" which says the tdc after trigger should be about 100 Deg. (6 deg per tooth, 16.5 teeth- 16.5 x 6 = 99)
used that as a starting point, and I was able to get the car to run but my timing mark was not lining up at all which confused me, with the timing light on #1 it was showing that it was running but 70 degrees off, so we concluded that I must be using the wrong mark because that's not possible.

Even no there is no timing belt, there is a TDC mark on the crank pulley. that mark I thought was TDC for cyl 1 but that is for #5 (rear most cylinder , not 1). I verified this with a dowel and cross checked with another complete engine I have.

Image
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby audifreakjim » Thu Dec 17, 2020 7:50 pm

Now I see where the confusion comes from. That pic with the cyl #s should have #5 as #1. Is that from a factory manual? Who references TDC of a motor on a piston different than #1??
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The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:43 pm

Yeah so the confusion was all on my end.
I had all the settings how I thought they should be to get the car to run but couldn't get spark on any cylinder but #2. After fixing the rising vs. falling error, I then had spark, started the car, but we could not figure out how the timing light was showing 70 degrees of advance and the car was still running fine . At this point I assumed this was my error somehow, not locking the timing advance in VEMS properly or something, so I ordered a Bentley manual to be sure that mark was actually right. Then the bentley showed up and has literally nothing about the timing or timing chains at all. Just has that one picture with the numbers of the cylinders. So that was a waste of $$. Im trying to figure out if any of my friends have access to all data where I can look at the timing procedure.

Ive never seen any car that has a timing mark on the crank pulley that isn't for the cylinder that is nearest the crank pulley but I understand that this car needs #5 locked at TDC to do the timing chains so maybe thats why the mark is there? I guess there is a crank lock tool that slides in to lock it in place, which I don't have yet.

So I guess , maybe I'm still confused?
The car runs set up like this (pic below) , cross checked everything by doing output test and sparking each cylinder. I don't think I could have it backwards because then the only cylinder sparking at the right time would be #3. So the way I have it the numbering is still 1-5 front to rear just like old Audi but the timing mark is different , since the factory tdc mark holds 5 at the top not 1. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else but hopefully it does, because it doesn't to me.
Basically my theory is ok this engine you can you could put all the settings on , use that factory mark on the crank damper , but connect your light to 5 and not 1 and pretend it’s 1.
Image

I’m doing all of this with the following
Timing locked at “1” degree in VEMS
First trigger tooth 0
VVT unplugged
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby audifreakjim » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:09 am

Pat, It may work for you now, but it's not a good long term solution. The 07k is super simple, but it all starts with #1 being closest to the timing chains. That's #1, you have to ignore its position relative to the crank pulley. Here is the procedure.

1. Set engine at TDC for #!, install crank lock tool. - That mark on your crank pulley and flange will line up :)
2. Install cam lock tool, the flat spots will be level and the bolts for the tool can be installed
3. Remove/install timing chains/adjusters, tensioners
4. Use new bolts on the cam adjusters to tighten everything down again.

That's it, it's impossible to screw up :)

Get vems referencing TDC of #! on the 07k and configs like mine will work.
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Mcstiff » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:26 pm

Too funny! It is like an old SAAB, backwards engine!
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The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:44 pm

I set the timing off what I was calling #5 which is the closest to the chain.
I think what I should have done which would have been easier was just start by marking all the cylinders out like you did.
I’ve got a little paper protractor I printed out so I can take it out there and see exactly what’s going on , and I’ll get it set up like yours /Sean’s . It makes no sense not to.
First I have to go home and print some config stuff out to look at . Reread what you just wrote word for word and make sure I have the right idea
Last edited by Afterthought on Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The 90Q (07k?)

Postby Afterthought » Fri Dec 18, 2020 12:48 pm

Mcstiff wrote:Too funny! It is like an old SAAB, backwards engine!

My head is backwards after working on this
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